Should people who hold train doors open be fined?

bringbackcrouc · 31 Oct 2018

Hi,

Holding the doors causes delays and damage. Should we fine the heathens who show such selfish disregard by holding doors open after they have been cleared to depart?

JC

RailUK Forums

Westcoast-ting · 31 Oct 2018

Yes. But like most things on this railway there will never be enough resources to police it.

bringbackcrouc · 31 Oct 2018

Westcoast-ting said:
Yes. But like most things on this railway there will never be enough resources to police it.

I shall be left with no choice but to tut in their general direction and give them an eye roll that leaves them mildly uncomfortable

Eddd · 31 Oct 2018

Could almost be automated on the London Underground using face recognition and a fine via pay-as-you-go or contactless on exit.

Bletchleyite · 31 Oct 2018

bringbackcrouc said:
Holding the doors causes delays and damage. Should we fine the heathens who show such selfish disregard by holding doors open after they have been cleared to depart?

No. It really isn't that much of an issue.

If it causes damage then the door mechanisms are not fit for purpose.

Bucephalus · 31 Oct 2018

bringbackcrouc said:
I shall be left with no choice but to tut in their general direction and give them an eye roll that leaves them mildly uncomfortable

...The door obstruction community cowers

In all seriousness (well some), a public service announcement style campaign with the threat of trap and drag might work

stut · 31 Oct 2018

Bucephalus said:
In all seriousness (well some), a public service announcement style campaign with the threat of trap and drag might work

I thought we were talking about fining, now we're threatening transgressors with dragging? What's this, the railway ISIS?

Seriously, though, we have enough petty regulations in lieu of simply telling someone they're being an idiot. Either it wouldn't be enforced at all, or it would end up being a revenue generator, and enforced with excessive zeal. Of course, they wouldn't go after the burly bloke holding the door open, they'd go after the pensioner who steps through just as the beeps are starting. You just have to look at how litter patrols operate.

OneOffDave · 31 Oct 2018

If the booked assistance turned up, then I wouldn't have to block the doors. Unless I should meekly get overcarried and wait until the terminus to get off. My other option would be to use the Passcom.

swt_passenger · 31 Oct 2018

It’s already a byelaw offence, we already have the ‘petty regulation’ amongst many others.

We’ve had this discussion before, but it’s all but unenforceable.

11. (1)
No person shall move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing door, train, or any other equipment on the railway except:
(i) in an emergency, by means of any equipment on or near which there is a notice indicating that it is intended to be used in an emergency; or
(ii) any equipment intended for the use of passengers in that way in normal operating circumstances

LAX54 · 31 Oct 2018

Bletchleyite said:
No. It really isn't that much of an issue.

If it causes damage then the door mechanisms are not fit for purpose.

And makes the train late.

al78 · 31 Oct 2018

stut said:
Of course, they wouldn't go after the burly bloke holding the door open, they'd go after the pensioner who steps through just as the beeps are starting. You just have to look at how litter patrols operate.

The pensioner has an easy defence, if they are walking through the door just as the beeps start they are not holding or obstructing the door, so no issue.

robbeech · 31 Oct 2018

I have held doors on the underground to let an elderly person finish boarding or alighting. If they’ve started the process when the beeping starts then there is a chance they won’t be in or out when the doors close. I’m sure you’re not considering allowing them to get trapped or fining the kind person stopping them getting trapped?

Mag_seven · 31 Oct 2018

Westcoast-ting said:
Yes. But like most things on this railway there will never be enough resources to police it.

Agreed - if you don't have any resources to police it they are more or less pointless.

CaptainHaddock · 31 Oct 2018

bringbackcrouc said:
Hi,

Holding the doors causes delays and damage. Should we fine the heathens who show such selfish disregard by holding doors open after they have been cleared to depart?

JC

No, we should force feed them sparrows until the beaks poke out of their stomach linings

gsnedders · 31 Oct 2018

robbeech said:
I have held doors on the underground to let an elderly person finish boarding or alighting. If they’ve started the process when the beeping starts then there is a chance they won’t be in or out when the doors close. I’m sure you’re not considering allowing them to get trapped or fining the kind person stopping them getting trapped?

Or, as I think the most common case when I've held the door, a child running ahead of their guardians. I'd much rather do that than get off at the next station, make sure they end up with some staff there, etc.

gordonthemoron · 31 Oct 2018

the driver on our Bakerloo service last Sunday had a right go at large groups boarding through the same door and passengers with bulky luggage boarding the end doors of carriages, told them to split up and use the full length of the train and for passengers with luggage to use the wide doors

Bletchleyite · 31 Oct 2018

gordonthemoron said:
the driver on our Bakerloo service last Sunday had a right go at large groups boarding through the same door and passengers with bulky luggage boarding the end doors of carriages, told them to split up and use the full length of the train and for passengers with luggage to use the wide doors

And like most of the inane wittering that seems to come from Tube platform staff and drivers, I guess it was ignored?

gordonthemoron · 31 Oct 2018

Bletchleyite said:
And like most of the inane wittering that seems to come from Tube platform staff and drivers, I guess it was ignored?

That was said after the tube got moving

Jonfun · 31 Oct 2018

Triggering the obstacle detection often causes delays; but it's when people force the door against its mechanism that the big issue is. I've had carriages have to be taken out of service before now because someone's forced a door against the mechanism and broken it. If I was in charge I'd bill them for the repair...

underbank · 31 Oct 2018

Jonfun said:
Triggering the obstacle detection often causes delays; but it's when people force the door against its mechanism that the big issue is. I've had carriages have to be taken out of service before now because someone's forced a door against the mechanism and broken it. If I was in charge I'd bill them for the repair...

If the door mechanism breaks simply because there's an obstacle, then it's clearly not fit for purpose.

racyrich · 31 Oct 2018

bringbackcrouc said:
Hi,

Holding the doors causes delays and damage. Should we fine the heathens who show such selfish disregard by holding doors open after they have been cleared to depart?

JC

Only if drivers/guards who close the doors early or depart early are also fined.

No? Oh . . .

Surreytraveller · 31 Oct 2018

Bucephalus said:
...The door obstruction community cowers

In all seriousness (well some), a public service announcement style campaign with the threat of trap and drag might work

That would provide evidence that the rail industry is aware of the trap and drag risk, so would therefore be responsible if someone was killed or injured by being trapped and dragged

ComUtoR · 31 Oct 2018

Surreytraveller said:
That would provide evidence that the rail industry is aware of the trap and drag risk, so would therefore be responsible if someone was killed or injured by being trapped and dragged

They are already well aware of trap and drags. There are RAIB reports that specifically highlight the risks. There have been cases that have gone to court. The line where the TOC is responsible is quite clear.

yorkie · 31 Oct 2018

racyrich said:
Only if drivers/guards who close the doors early or depart early are also fined.

No? Oh . . .

Indeed. There is a big difference between someone obstructing doors on a 3-minute frequency metro route and holding the last connection if a train is departing early or if a TOC has made some sort of blunder.

For example TPE and LNER agreed for the last Newcastle connection to be held; platform staff tried to get the doors closed on an HST before an elderly couple made the connection. I held the door open for them and closed it behind them, which saved the rail industry a hefty taxi bill and the staff being potentially told off for not following instructions. However a despatcher wasn't happy despite my actions clearly being proportionate and in compliance with his employer's wishes. I left informing him assertively, that his company had agreed that those customers would be conveyed. Unfortunately some despatchers don't understand the bigger picture.

TheEdge · 31 Oct 2018

underbank said:
If the door mechanism breaks simply because there's an obstacle, then it's clearly not fit for purpose.

Not an obstacle but actually pulling against the mechanism. If the doors use any sort of gears or mechanics to move (as opposed to pneumatic systems used on older stock) someone forcibly pulling on them or against them for a sustained time risks the mechanism stripping teeth or buckling a drive bar, or similar. I once managed to break the windscreen wipers on my car by holding them while they were on (don't ask!), I didn't accuse the Mercedes Benz of making wiper mechanism unfit for purpose, I'd held them and caused the drive rod to bend slightly.

Bletchleyite · 31 Oct 2018

TheEdge said:
Not an obstacle but actually pulling against the mechanism. If the doors use any sort of gears or mechanics to move (as opposed to pneumatic systems used on older stock) someone forcibly pulling on them or against them for a sustained time risks the mechanism stripping teeth or buckling a drive bar, or similar. I once managed to break the windscreen wipers on my car by holding them while they were on (don't ask!), I didn't accuse the Mercedes Benz of making wiper mechanism unfit for purpose, I'd held them and caused the drive rod to bend slightly.

Windscreen wipers are not designed to deal with obstructions because conventionally there is nothing to obstruct them - though that said on occasions mine get frozen to the windscreen and I would be quite annoyed were the mechanism ruined by erroneously turning them on in such a condition. Train doors are, or rather should be, and if they aren't they are not fit for purpose.

(Notwithstanding poor designs of train doors, such as the interior ones on Voyagers and Meridians which do make one hell of a nasty noise if you hold them back)

gimmea50anyday · 31 Oct 2018

Let's look it at another way...

Why do people feel the need to hold the doors open in the first place? Why do people think it is OK to hold train doors open when they are closing?

bramling · 31 Oct 2018

gimmea50anyday said:
Let's look it at another way...

Why do people feel the need to hold the doors open in the first place? Why do people think it is OK to hold train doors open when they are closing?

Because some people are self-centered and don't think / care that their actions are delaying many other people.

Bletchleyite · 31 Oct 2018

bramling said:
Because some people are self-centered and don't think / care that their actions are delaying many other people.

By and large probably the same people who jump for the lift call button when the doors are nearly closed (usually with a false apology when the doors are reopened) rather than waiting for the next one and pressing it once closed. In some buildings the call button doesn't reopen the doors if closure has started unless they are only closing because there was no call for the lift, I wish all lifts were like that.

al78 · 31 Oct 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Windscreen wipers are not designed to deal with obstructions because conventionally there is nothing to obstruct them - though that said on occasions mine get frozen to the windscreen and I would be quite annoyed were the mechanism ruined by erroneously turning them on in such a condition. Train doors are, or rather should be, and if they aren't they are not fit for purpose.

(Notwithstanding poor designs of train doors, such as the interior ones on Voyagers and Meridians which do make one hell of a nasty noise if you hold them back)

TheEdge is not talking about obstructions, he is talking about deliberately forcing the door, which if done with sufficient force, could quite feasibly damage the mechanism. Forcing the door open against its mechanism is not the same as obstruction.

Should people who hold train doors open be fined?

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