Yes that is irritating especially when you are already in the lift and think you have got the lift to yourself.
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Should people who hold train doors open be fined?
- Thread starter bringbackcrouc
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Yes that is irritating especially when you are already in the lift and think you have got the lift to yourself.
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RailUK Forums
Because some people, for whatever reason, have been delayed/late to the point of only being able to catch the train if they make a mad dash for it, so they make a mad dash for it. In a group of people, there is nearly always someone who is slower than everyone else, so the group just barely manage to get on the train, realise they are missing the slow one, hear the bleeps then see their colleague arriving, so decide to try and hold the door, as they are only a couple of seconds away, and holding the door open an extra two seconds will make no difference.
It’s not unenforceable. I’ve reported offenders for it on a few occasions in the same way I’ve reported Fare evaders. Not sure on the outcome, but I’d imagine they’d get some money in lieu of prosecution out of offenders
I’d only report offenders as a last resort, after warming them first as per common sense to be honest. Bearing in mind it costs about £100 a minute to delay a train, if they really wanted to, the TOC could go down the civil prosecution route and claim back any penalty for delay minutes they’ve incurred. As far as I’m aware that’s yet to happen though.
I don't have a problem with that. It takes a few seconds for the doors to open, let someone in, then close again. If that someone is forced to wait for another lift, the wait time for them could be much longer. Therefore the most logical thing to do, it terms of optimal action for everyone, is to open the door and let the person in. I'm amazed how some people get so stroppy about being delayed a few seconds by someone else, as though it makes a massive difference to their day, yet I bet if you observe that same person elsewhere, they will be doing things like pulling off the trundlebunny act of walking at a quarter of the averagewalking pace down the pavement, in the optimal position as to make it as difficult as possible for anyone else to overtake them, then they will get in their car and drive as if the speed limits are in kph. Where I live you would be on your way to a stress related nervous disorder if you got worked up over every perceivable delay in your day.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It causes more of a delay to the "vehicle" than holding the doors on the Tube does.
I'm not talking about an obstruction, which shouldn't cause issue, I'm talking about forcibly working against the mechanism. An obstruction will cause the door to stop and doesn't start applying a force back at it. Someone forcing it against the mechanism could, for example on a door with a toothed cog system, either cause the teeth to be stripped or for a cog or motor to jump. One times broken door.
I do wonder if one of the reasons people hold doors and generally fail to follow safety instructions is that we live in a society where it is generally seen as the fault of the operator if an accident happens. Perhaps this leads to a sort of complacency where people don't perceive themselves as responsible for their own actions. There are other developed nations where a culture of individual responsibility is very much the norm, I wonder if the passengers in those nations are more careful?
Bevan Price
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The TOCs are probably aware of the bad press they might get when some bored reporter puts half the tale in some printed rag. Plus there might be a counter-claim because passengers were late due to a late-running connecting service.It’s not unenforceable. I’ve reported offenders for it on a few occasions in the same way I’ve reported Fare evaders. Not sure on the outcome, but I’d imagine they’d get some money in lieu of prosecution out of offenders
I’d only report offenders as a last resort, after warming them first as per common sense to be honest. Bearing in mind it costs about £100 a minute to delay a train, if they really wanted to, the TOC could go down the civil prosecution route and claim back any penalty for delay minutes they’ve incurred. As far as I’m aware that’s yet to happen though.
swj99
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Maybe it's because the doors have started closing too soon, ie before people have finished going through them.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
At Bank the policy is to close the doors when it is time, not when people have stopped boarding, because people will not stop boarding.
It's an unusual case, granted, but it does perhaps highlight why.
Not sure about fined but perhaps there ought to be some deterrent against obstructing a door to wait for late passengers (friends), or because the person themselves are late and wish to force a door before it seals ****
It's so unsafe and unbelievably risky and dangerous. Nothing much train crew can do other than instruct the person to stop. Train gets delayed if the person is determinted to prevent doors safely closing.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It really, genuinely isn't anything of the sort.
It causes delay and inconvenience, of course, but not significant risk of anything unless the guard isn't watching and the interlock is faulty all at the same time.
The kind of thing I'm talking about is passengers putting an arm in between the doors to prevent them from closing because they run down after a whistle has been blown and don't want to wait for the next train. Or, on occasions just forcing their whole body in between the doors.
Obviously the doors will be released straight away by the guard or driver. But the second in between is not going to be pleasant for the person and if they lost balance or their footing could be serious.
Presumably revenue protection officers were in attendance at the time or BTP officers were already present?
Kneedown
Established Member
Bit harsh on the poor Sparrows?
Might as well say the same about most laws then.
Speeding, burglery, trespass...
While I applaud your willingness to take responsibility, in this day and age it's almost not worth the hassle of potential come back.
Guardians should take responsibility of their children. By having your approach, it enforces the view that someone else will take responsibility if I don't.
Some? I'd suggest it's "most" these days.
In many circumstances I include myself in that... especially when driving.
And they shouldn't worry.
I think many people see/use the railway as a necessity rather than a choice (even though it really is a choice).
No matter the bad press, people will still use it from a commuter point of view.
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Old Yard Dog
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No. What other industry would dream of fining its customers, particularly those trying to be Good Samaritans?
transmanche
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About five years ago Nexus (operators of the Tyne & Wear Metro) prosecuted a number of people for obstructing the doors. I assume a handful of people were targetted in order to gain some publicity for a concurrent safety campaign.
Woman fined for blocking Metro at Newcastle's Monument - Evening Chronicle - 3 May 2013
Passenger who obstructed Metro train doors is fined - Nexus - 18 November 2013
Fines for two men who obstructed Metro train doors - Nexus - 7 April 2014
Roy Badami
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Obstructing the doors is one thing - foolish and dangerous, sure, but people are used to doing this with lifts and don't understand the risks of doing this on trains. In fact I recall the Washington D.C. metro running an awareness campaign telling people that "train doors do not work like elevator doors"
However, I have seen (rarely) passengers on the tube grasp with both hands a set of doors that have almost completely closed and forcefully yank them wide open. Invariably a young male, FWIW. I regard this behaviour as entirely unacceptable and I'm assuming it's this behaviour that posters mentioning damage to the mechanism are talking about. Indeed the first time I saw this behaviour I was expecting they probably had damaged the door mechanism and the train would be taken out of service.
Fortunately that hasn't ever been the case when I've seen this happen, but I wonder whether it every is.
EDIT: I guess the pneumatic mechanisms are quite forgiving. Would be interesting to know what happens when people try this on the S stock - as I'm sure they undoubtedly do (although I haven't witnessed it myself).
However, I have seen (rarely) passengers on the tube grasp with both hands a set of doors that have almost completely closed and forcefully yank them wide open. Invariably a young male, FWIW. I regard this behaviour as entirely unacceptable and I'm assuming it's this behaviour that posters mentioning damage to the mechanism are talking about. Indeed the first time I saw this behaviour I was expecting they probably had damaged the door mechanism and the train would be taken out of service.
Fortunately that hasn't ever been the case when I've seen this happen, but I wonder whether it every is.
EDIT: I guess the pneumatic mechanisms are quite forgiving. Would be interesting to know what happens when people try this on the S stock - as I'm sure they undoubtedly do (although I haven't witnessed it myself).
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NoOnesFool
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Yes. They should be.
theageofthetra
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Yes. And seasons cancelled.
Roy Badami
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You think these people actually have tickets to cancel?
(Only half joking.)
(Only half joking.)
I have a ticket and will hold doors open.
However I only do so when those operating the railway have been stupid by making a very late platform change without giving their customers sufficient time to do so.
Yes I know there will be the "but that is holding up the train causing delays", well tough. They should get their act together and not expect customers to be able to run a four minute mile.
NoOnesFool
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The TOC that you are travelling with will have very little, if not no control over a last minute platform change. This is controlled by the signalman.
EM2
Established Member
And when you damage the door mechanism and your train gets taken out of service?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Holding doors open will not damage the door mechanism.
BMIFlyer
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Yes it can do, depending on the unit type.
If you do that on my train I will have you removed, by the BTP.
They can board the next train.
BluePenguin
On Moderation
No I don't think they should. Holding the door open is a lot safer than someone running into or getting their hand or head stuck. Doors can be replaced whilst people can't
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