GTR charging more on rail replacement bus days

ianBR · 1 Nov 2018

A single from Gatwick to Brighton on a Saturday is usually £8.80 for the Thameslink only fare.

However on rail replacement bus days they force you to buy an anytime ticket for £10.50.

It is pretty outrageous being charged more for a rail replacement bus service that takes 30 minutes longer. Surely it is should still be considered a Thameslink service with the final section replaced by a bus.

RailUK Forums

A Challenge · 1 Nov 2018

Probably as buses are all operated by a different one of their subbrands (southern, I'd guess). While tickets restricting on subbrand are not legally enforceable, you will likely get hassle for it, and possibly a similarly unenforceable penelty fare. Not having Themselves operate any buses (if indeed this is what's happening) is jolly convenient, isn't it?

alistairlees · 1 Nov 2018

The bus has an operator of "Southern", hence the problem.

ForTheLoveOf · 1 Nov 2018

A Challenge said:
Probably as buses are all operated by a different one of their subbrands (southern, I'd guess). While tickets restricting on subbrand are not legally enforceable, you will likely get hassle for it, and possibly a similarly unenforceable penelty fare. Not having Themselves operate any buses (if indeed this is what's happening) is jolly convenient, isn't it?

I don't see how any Penalty Fare can be charged in relation to a Rail Replacement Bus. That certainly would be a new one for me...

Bletchleyite · 1 Nov 2018

This is possibly a bit more like the via Kensington Olympia fares "disappearing" when the WLL is not running, when in fact acceptance is always put in place via London.

Is there evidence of these fares not being accepted?

sprunt · 1 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
This is possibly a bit more like the via Kensington Olympia fares "disappearing" when the WLL is not running, when in fact acceptance is always put in place via London.

Is there evidence of these fares not being accepted?

Even if they are accepted, isn't the problem more that passengers who don't know the difference are being "conned" into buying the more expensive ticket without being given the option of the TL only ticket?

Given that GTR don't see the revenue, what's their incentive to do this? Is it possible that they're being quietly leant on by DfT?

ForTheLoveOf · 1 Nov 2018

sprunt said:
Even if they are accepted, isn't the problem more that passengers who don't know the difference are being "conned" into buying the more expensive ticket without being given the option of the TL only ticket?

Given that GTR don't see the revenue, what's their incentive to do this? Is it possible that they're being quietly leant on by DfT?

I suspect it's simply a case of incompetence and/or oversight rather than any kind of intentional act.

clagmonster · 1 Nov 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
I don't see how any Penalty Fare can be charged in relation to a Rail Replacement Bus. That certainly would be a new one for me...

I suspect in many cases you would have issues relating to visibility of penalty fare signage, as it will have been sited for passengers go to the platforms to catch a train. Possibly exceptions to this, and of course I suppose if they were desperate they could put a penalty fares sign in a sandwich board near the bus stop.

ForTheLoveOf · 1 Nov 2018

clagmonster said:
I suspect in many cases you would have issues relating to visibility of penalty fare signage, as it will have been sited for passengers go to the platforms to catch a train. Possibly exceptions to this, and of course I suppose if they were desperate they could put a penalty fares sign in a sandwich board near the bus stop.

Well I think the more fundamental issue is that the Penalty Fares Regulations refer to a train, which is generally defined as a vehicle that moves along a system of rails with flanged wheels. A bus cannot therefore be a train!

AndrewE · 1 Nov 2018

ianBR said:
A single from Gatwick to Brighton on a Saturday is usually £8.80 for the Thameslink only fare.
However on rail replacement bus days they force you to buy an anytime ticket for £10.50.
It is pretty outrageous being charged more for a rail replacement bus service that takes 30 minutes longer. Surely it is should still be considered a Thameslink service with the final section replaced by a bus.

As no-one has said it yet, I would hazard a guess that as discounted tickets are there to fill up seats that might otherwise run round empty, then to encourage extra traffic onto a limited-capacity replacement bus (that is an extra cost as well) is pointless / an own goal.

causton · 1 Nov 2018

I guarantee all the thought that has been put into this thread is more than GTR have thought about it!

It is simple as the computer saying Thameslink fares = TL only, and the replacement buses all being "Southern" ones.

I wouldn't rush to blame malice for what could easily be explained by incompetence.

Wallsendmag · 1 Nov 2018

The bus problem is exactly why LNER's advance tickets are mainly routed LNER & Connections, makes engineering work much easier to handle

JB_B · 1 Nov 2018

I would have liked GTR to give a clear statement on the validity of Thameslink-only tickets on the diversions via Littlehampton (as far as Three Bridges, at least.) Perhaps it's hidden away on their website somewhere - if so, does anyone have a link?

I appreciate that this thread is mainly about the (inept) decision of GTR to code all the replacement buses as Southern in the data for journey planners. For anyone just turning up at the station: Thameslink-only tickets are, of course, accepted on the buses and no-one is checking the tickets for the buses anyway.

causton · 1 Nov 2018

I am not even sure if it is inept as I remember it happening even in FCC days: I remember having some sort of promotional FCC only ticket and wanting to go to Brighton and the same thing happened - there were no FCC buses, they were all 'Southern' but they happily accepted the ticket I had.

A Challenge · 1 Nov 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
I suspect it's simply a case of incompetence and/or oversight rather than any kind of intentional act.

The THAMESLINK ONLY fares are definitely not an oversight like the quoted post implies - though they are definitely meant to be there.

yorkie · 1 Nov 2018

The cheaper fares are valid. Booking sites are unable to sell them because of GTR's actions; any wrongdoing is not due to the retailer but is purely down to GTR and their actions (or inactions).

If anyone is mislead into paying more, I'd be very interested to gather any evidence you have, including a photograph of the ticket that was wrongly sold, screenshots etc. I believe this evidence will be extremely useful one day, though I am unable to say more than that at this stage. Please contact me directly to discuss this further.

The "incompetence" excuse doesn't get GTR out of it; it's still an illegal charge.

Bletchleyite · 1 Nov 2018

A Challenge said:
The THAMESLINK ONLY fares are definitely not an oversight like the quoted post implies - though they are definitely meant to be there.

The fares are not an oversight. What is an oversight is that putting all the buses in the system as operated by Southern (when in fact they are a generic GTR service) is causing these tickets to inadvertently not be shown on the planners.

A Challenge · 1 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
The fares are not an oversight. What is an oversight is that putting all the buses in the system as operated by Southern (when in fact they are a generic GTR service) is causing these tickets to inadvertently not be shown on the planners.

All services are listed as an individual brand, even though they should be a generic GTR service.

Iggy12a · 3 Nov 2018

There was a similar problem on the last couple of times GWR trains have been replaced by the bus between Gatwick and Guildford.
The cheaper direct fares to Guildford and Reading are priced with a routing via Gomshall. Presumably because the bus is set up as a special direct service, journey planners did not pick up that it was a via Gomshall service, so they either did not show the bus at all, providing journeys at the higher fare via Clapham Junction, or they showed the journey but with no fare available.
Walkup passengers could buy the correct ticket from the Gatwick TVMs or the ticket office.

Bletchleyite · 3 Nov 2018

You get something similar when there is a planned WLL closure with acceptance via London.

DaveN · 6 Nov 2018

When the Thameslink core is closed on Sundays, the booking sites seem to offer only offer Travelcards for Flitwick to London Blackfriars instead of the cheaper London Thameslink tickets

infobleep · 6 Nov 2018

Iggy12a said:
There was a similar problem on the last couple of times GWR trains have been replaced by the bus between Gatwick and Guildford.
The cheaper direct fares to Guildford and Reading are priced with a routing via Gomshall. Presumably because the bus is set up as a special direct service, journey planners did not pick up that it was a via Gomshall service, so they either did not show the bus at all, providing journeys at the higher fare via Clapham Junction, or they showed the journey but with no fare available.
Walkup passengers could buy the correct ticket from the Gatwick TVMs or the ticket office.

That is another long standing problem.

I thought temporary easements were meant to deal with this but maybe no one has thought to add an easement for this situation.

RJ · 6 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
The fares are not an oversight. What is an oversight is that putting all the buses in the system as operated by Southern (when in fact they are a generic GTR service) is causing these tickets to inadvertently not be shown on the planners.

This is most likely to be correct.

Instead of vilifying GTR, has anyone gotten in contact with them regarding this? Fair play if anyone has and they haven't done anything, but if not then perhaps this would be the fastest way of getting the problem fixed - assuming that is what people want?

yorkie · 6 Nov 2018

RJ said:
This is most likely to be correct.

Instead of vilifying GTR, has anyone gotten in contact with them regarding this? Fair play if anyone has and they haven't done anything, but if not then perhaps this would be the fastest way of getting the problem fixed - assuming that is what people want?

GTR don't tend to answer questions like this:

@TLRailUK is it the view of GTR that a rail replacement bus which is deemed to be "operated" by your "Southern" brand MAY be used by passengers holding "Thameslink Only" tickets?

They did not reply.

RJ · 7 Nov 2018

yorkie said:
GTR don't tend to answer questions like this:

They did not reply.

I think it is already known that the answer to that question is yes. However, GTR aren't to know it is being asked because of an issue with the tickets the booking engines are offering for sale!

infobleep · 8 Nov 2018

RJ said:
I think it is already known that the answer to that question is yes. However, GTR aren't to know it is being asked because of an issue with the tickets the booking engines are offering for sale!

I tweeted GWR, or was it First Great Western, back in April 2015 and I asked them why the different priced tickets along the North Down Line. I included a screenshot of the National Rail Enquiries App with prices.

They said they would raise it with the Web Team and that it wasn't by design but a limitation. They said the cheaper ticket was valid. It seems that limitation hasn't gone away. I think it could be dealt with by an easement.

The full tweets can be seen here. The above summeries the main initial points of the tweets so I've not quoted them.
https://twitter.com/infobleep/status/584665037215760384?s=19

GTR charging more on rail replacement bus days

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Veteran Member