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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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superkev

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I wasn't making a direct comparison to the 170s, but a comparing MK3s to modern intercity. DMUs. Having had the misfortune to be sat at the carriage end of a particularly sad specimen of an LNER mk3 last night, the vibration and the ride, pitch and sway was horrendous and generated far more noise than any intercity DMU I've travelled on.
The LNER mk3s are not a fair comparison (see this month Modern Railways {MR}) as the original Woodhead dampers where replaced by an alternative presumably cheaper. GW retained there Woodheads.
MR reported that LNER where in the market for second hand Woodheads as presumably the originals had gone for scrap.
K
 
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Rail Blues

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The LNER mk3s are not a fair comparison (see this month Modern Railways {MR}) as the original Woodhead dampers where replaced by an alternative presumably cheaper. GW retained there Woodheads.
MR reported that LNER where in the market for second hand Woodheads as presumably the originals had gone for scrap.
K

I have actually travelled on GWR mk3 stock and not found them appreciably better riding.
 

GusB

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Paul Kerr

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Absolutely spot on. 99.999999% of passengers don't give a toss about engine noise. They probably don't even know what it is, and have no idea whether their train is powered by diesel, electricity, plutonium or fairy dust.

Every Mark 3 I've been on recently has ridden like a rollercoaster and the squeaking from the gangway has driven me nuts.

You certainly have a flair for the dramatic (as I do on occasion); I will give you that ;) Can you help me understand what you have against using hauled stock? By your own admission you've been directly involved in procurement of rolling stock since the 90's, which means in all likelihood you were involved in decisions to procure high density DMU stock (170's, Desiros or similar) on long distance Inter-City routes. Am I right in that assumption? Given that you have been on this forum defending the 170s and even suggesting converting them to 6 car trains for Inter City services, can you explain to me why you think a train like this is better than using hauled stock? The financial argument I fully understand, but what other arguments in your mind support going with a 170 or other similar DMU on long haul services?
 

Highlandspring

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This thread used to be quite an interesting read but it has turned into a hamster wheel with folk posting the same tedious arguments over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.............
 
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43096

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This thread used to be quita an interesting read but it has turned into a hamster wheel with folk posting the same tedious arguments over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.............
Maybe time to either lock it or make it just about the facts of the introduction i.e. vehicle moves, workings, diagrams etc. and no opinions?
 

yorkie

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This thread is to discuss updates regarding the delivery of HSTs to Scotrail only.

If you wish to debate whether or not HSTs were the right choice, use this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/were-refurbished-hsts-the-right-choice-for-scotrail.170856/

If you wish to post ideas about alternatives, such as 185s to Scotrail, then create a new thread (if there isn't one already) in the Speculative Ideas section. Please do not post speculative ideas in any other part of the forum, thanks.
 

Highland37

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I was just in the bath there reading about how Bombardier will be producing 25 vehicles at the height of Aventra production and I couldn't help thinking that to do this, they must have had to upskill and recruit massively.

Now, Wabtec appear to be unable complete one vehicle per week on a much simpler job...
 

MCR247

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I was just in the bath there reading about how Bombardier will be producing 25 vehicles at the height of Aventra production and I couldn't help thinking that to do this, they must have had to upskill and recruit massively.

Now, Wabtec appear to be unable complete one vehicle per week on a much simpler job...

Much simpler job? What makes you say that?
 

Paul Kerr

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Much simpler job? What makes you say that?

I would have thought that building new coaches from scratch would be a lot more involved and complicated than adding retention tanks and sliding doors to existing vehicles. What are we missing?
 

Highland37

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Much simpler job? What makes you say that?

Brand new product with certification required to integrate with a more complex signalling system with shorter dwell times and competing in a market with several other world-class manufacturers. To deliver that, a high quality work force, on a large scale, needs to be recruited and retained. It's a much more complex and larger scale job than what Wabtec are slowly working through...
 

Class37.4

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I would have thought that building new coaches from scratch would be a lot more involved and complicated than adding retention tanks and sliding doors to existing vehicles. What are we missing?
But then again you are dealing with a clapped rusty old train with unknown levels of corrosion until you look at, and then trying to add new parts to this old train which by all accounts were not exactly built to tight tolerances. By contrast Building a new train with all new parts no corrosion issues to worry about just a build it the same carriage after carriage.
 

Highland37

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But then again you are dealing with a clapped rusty old train with unknown levels of corrosion until you look at, and then trying to add new parts to this old train which by all accounts were not exactly built to tight tolerances. By contrast Building a new train with all new parts no corrosion issues to worry about just a build it the same carriage after carriage.

Yes but the rate it is being done at is VERY slow. So slow in fact that it will take years to get the trains into service and well behind, not just slightly, what was agreed.
 

Killingworth

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HSTs were a great leap forward 40 years ago and they've been very popular ever since, surpassing younger rivals in the experience of many passengers. They've hammered up and down the country in all weathers, both coaches and locomotives having parts repaired, replaced and upgraded many times. The result must be a mix of altered, deformed and corroded vehicles for which any production line treatment must be challenging.

The experience of preservation groups suggests that almost every restoration takes a lot longer than hoped. Each unit is one off preservation on a much bigger scale. It might have been cheaper and quicker to order new units from the original plans, updated with modern materials and specifications! Of course shipping the old trains to workshops in Europe to speed up the conversion programme would be unthinkable.

If done right the units should last at least another 10 years. When's a new bi-mode 43 coming down track to keep them going another 25 years?:)
 

Bletchleyite

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The experience of preservation groups suggests that almost every restoration takes a lot longer than hoped. Each unit is one off preservation on a much bigger scale. It might have been cheaper and quicker to order new units from the original plans, updated with modern materials and specifications! Of course shipping the old trains to workshops in Europe to speed up the conversion programme would be unthinkable

Given the increased reliability of locomotives, wouldn't 68+Mk5 basically be near enough exactly that? They're just LHCS with a locomotive on each end, after all.
 

yorkie

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43096

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Despite the slow progress with the refurb project, there has been activity in the last few weeks:
- 43031/152 released from Brush on 29/10 and ran to Ely. Subsequently they have moved on to Wabtec Doncaster, which suggests the next refurbished set may be imminent.
- 43131/137 off-leased by GWR and sent to Ely on 01/11.
- 43131/137 and 6 unrefurbished trailers (2 each of TGS, TS and TF) ran as 5S06 from Ely to Glasgow Works yesterday.
 

jingsmonty

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Despite the slow progress with the refurb project, there has been activity in the last few weeks:
- 43031/152 released from Brush on 29/10 and ran to Ely. Subsequently they have moved on to Wabtec Doncaster, which suggests the next refurbished set may be imminent.
- 43131/137 off-leased by GWR and sent to Ely on 01/11.
- 43131/137 and 6 unrefurbished trailers (2 each of TGS, TS and TF) ran as 5S06 from Ely to Glasgow Works yesterday.

Was reading in a magazine that the 2nd refurbished set is due for release shortly
 

InOban

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Unfortunately we don't seem to have any spies at Wabtec who can report on progress. My guess is that they completed one set as a sort of prototype, and once that was approved they started on series production of the rest. There should therefore be a number if vehicles at different stages, and once a second set has been delivered, the remainder should emerge at regular intervals. The question is, how long will these intervals be.
 

_toommm_

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Unfortunately we don't seem to have any spies at Wabtec who can report on progress. My guess is that they completed one set as a sort of prototype, and once that was approved they started on series production of the rest. There should therefore be a number if vehicles at different stages, and once a second set has been delivered, the remainder should emerge at regular intervals. The question is, how long will these intervals be.

It may not be regular intervals - I suspect some vehicles will be more corroded than the rest, so they have a choice: push out the good sets now and leave the worst till last, or vice versa.
 

D6975

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It may not be regular intervals - I suspect some vehicles will be more corroded than the rest, so they have a choice: push out the good sets now and leave the worst till last, or vice versa.

Given that only about half of existing coaches are being converted, are they not simply rejecting bad 'uns and replacing them with ones in decent nick? Or is that too sensible?

edit: Or, another possibility, are the other coaches even worse than the ones selected for conversion.
 
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SC43090

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On Saturday 10th November 2018

5S06 1006 Ely Papworth sidings to Glasgow Works

43131

41104

42206

44010

42030

41130

44032

43137

SC 43090
 

SC43090

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Unfortunately we don't seem to have any spies at Wabtec who can report on progress. My guess is that they completed one set as a sort of prototype, and once that was approved they started on series production of the rest. There should therefore be a number if vehicles at different stages, and once a second set has been delivered, the remainder should emerge at regular intervals. The question is, how long will these intervals be.

On Friday 2nd November i saw 2 Scot Rail coaches been gronked looking very much done with new doors etc etc, then as been quoted by 43096 a couple of power cars went to Doncaster Wabtec from Loughborough in the last week which could indicate that the 2nd set might just might be close to been finished.....

SC 43090
 

jingsmonty

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Given that only about half of existing coaches are being converted, are they not simply rejecting bad 'uns and replacing them with ones in decent nick? Or is that too sensible?

edit: Or, another possibility, are the other coaches even worse than the ones selected for conversion.

This sounds right - the only coaches that aren't suitable for the refurbishment are the TGS/Buffet coaches (reason I was given is that all the refurbished coaches will be technically 'identical' - to do with ease of maintenance/training requirements, apparently).
 

jingsmonty

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Unfortunately we don't seem to have any spies at Wabtec who can report on progress. My guess is that they completed one set as a sort of prototype, and once that was approved they started on series production of the rest. There should therefore be a number if vehicles at different stages, and once a second set has been delivered, the remainder should emerge at regular intervals. The question is, how long will these intervals be.

I'd certainly hope this was the case - as far as I'm aware, there has been little/no staff training being completed, with regards to door operation (b both refurbished & classic sets). Also, the rumblings from the RMT re: the classic sets without CET toilets is still in the background (and I don't blame the RMT for taking this stance either).
 

43096

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43144/147 are now leased to ScotRail and are moving to Ely today.
 
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