Departure board stating "Northern Tickets Only" under the 21:27 to Hebden Bridge

wellhouse · 6 Nov 2018

I was surprised to see "Northern Tickets Only" specified for the 2127 Hebden Bridge departure on the CIS at Leeds on Sunday.

What is the significance of this restriction?

(Edit: image resized, as the original was over 3 Megabytes in size)

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ForTheLoveOf · 6 Nov 2018

wellhouse said:
I was surprised to see "Northern Tickets Only" specified for the 2127 Hebden Bridge departure on the CIS at Leeds on Sunday.

What is the significance of this restriction?

View attachment 55005

Perhaps that was part of a subtitle saying "Northern only tickets valid"? But usually if an overflowing subtitle is added, care is taken to ensure that it is clear that each portion is not a full announcement. So for example using ellipses at the start or end of each line.

xotGD · 6 Nov 2018

I've sen this message under other services at Leeds. Seems to be a good way to confuse passengers and get them to not board a train that their ticket is perfectly valid for.

Bletchleyite · 6 Nov 2018

I assume they mean "not TPE Only tickets"? If so, why not say that?

Mag_seven · 6 Nov 2018

Clearly a mistake - I can't think of any examples of where "operator specific" tickets are the only tickets that are valid.

Bletchleyite · 6 Nov 2018

Mag_seven said:
Clearly a mistake - I can't think of any examples of where "operator specific" tickets are the only tickets that are valid.

The only way that could be the case would be if the regular walk-up fare was routed via a route that particular train didn't take, and the TOC Only ticket was the only one that was valid that way as a result. But I can't think of a single example, other than that in the past tickets from Preston and many points south were routed Lancaster and thus the only tickets valid on DalesRail were ones specifically routed that way.

(This was silly, as in those days the first northbound service from Preston going past Lancaster/Oxenholme was about 1530 on a Sunday - people forget just how much PUG1 resulted in an improved WCML timetable)

johntea · 6 Nov 2018

Don’t TPE offer advance tickets for stations along the route?

Even if they did you would think ‘TPE only tickets not valid’ or similar would work better!

wellhouse · 6 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I assume they mean "not TPE Only tickets"? If so, why not say that?

johntea said:
Don’t TPE offer advance tickets for stations along the route?

Even if they did you would think ‘TPE only tickets not valid’ or similar would work better!

TPE do not serve Hebden Bridge; indeed, Northern are the only TOC that does. The only Leeds
/Hebden Bridge fares are set by West Yorkshire PTE

johntea · 6 Nov 2018

They don't, but certain Hebden Bridge services call at stations such as Dewsbury and Mirfield which TPE do cover.

robbeech · 6 Nov 2018

Mag_seven said:
Clearly a mistake - I can't think of any examples of where "operator specific" tickets are the only tickets that are valid.

Me neither. Although at Leeds there have been announcements on board trains in the past that have suggested that ONLY advanced tickets for a specific train would be valid on a particular service.

Starmill · 6 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I assume they mean "not TPE Only tickets"? If so, why not say that?

The screens at Dewsbury now mark all Northern trains as "'TPE Only' tickets are not valid" and all TransPennine Express services as "'Northern Only' tickets are not valid". It makes the scroll much longer! It's also far from clear, given a great many tickets say something like 'via TransPennine Express trains Only ' or "Valid only on specified trains and Northern connections". In other words, what's shown on the screen and what is printed on the tickets doesn't usually match. This is just as unhelpful.

Starmill · 6 Nov 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
Perhaps that was part of a subtitle saying "Northern only tickets valid"?

This message in this way has been displayed on the screens at Leeds for some time.

Bunglejim · 6 Nov 2018

Since the May timetable there has been a price war between Northern and TPE on some routes, Leeds to Huddersfield being one of them. To try and prevent confrontation on the train with passengers having the wrong operator tickets, the badly worded ‘Northern Only’ line is shown not just at Leeds but at all the stations on the route. As Northern no longer run the Leeds Huddersfield stoppers this is shown for the Leeds Southports and the Huddersfield Wakefields.

Like a lot of things on the CIS I wish it was better worded.

Starmill · 6 Nov 2018

johntea said:
Don’t TPE offer advance tickets for stations along the route?

For many journeys e.g Leeds to Morley you have to chose between TransPennine Only, Northern Only and Any Permitted.

Mag_seven · 6 Nov 2018

Bunglejim said:
The badly worded ‘Northern Only’ line

Its not just badly worded it is factually incorrect as "any permitted" tickets plus certain passes/rovers etc are all valid.

Bunglejim · 6 Nov 2018

Mag_seven said:
Its not just badly worded it is factually incorrect as "any permitted" tickets plus certain passes/rovers etc are all valid.

Indeed.

Most of the silly alterations to the CIS at Leeds have been done with the best intentions, just maybe needed a bit more discussion in the office before implementing?

furlong · 7 Nov 2018

But what are "Northern tickets"?

Bunglejim · 7 Nov 2018

furlong said:
But what are "Northern tickets"?

Ok, apologies if you know how the ticketing structure works, but I’ll try to explain using Mirfield to Huddersfield as an example.

The any permitted single is £2.30. Both Northern and TPE operate those service so after splitting they would get £1.15 each. In May TPE introduced its TPE only routing at £2:10, self explanatory you can only travel with TPE so they keep all the money. In response Northern introduced its Northern only ticket at £1.80.

It doesn’t really matter how much each operator charges, they win so long as they charge more than the value of the split any permitted income. When you consider the modern refund arrangements the passenger can easily loose out if they get the wrong ticket on a 2tph service that is 4 minutes apart.

One thing to note is these routing options apply to the walk up fare, not advance purchase.

Hope that helps.

_toommm_ · 7 Nov 2018

furlong said:
But what are "Northern tickets"?

Tickets with a thick, reassuring Yorkshire accent.

Whistler40145 · 7 Nov 2018

No doubt the Northern service would be the more desirable service for passengers to reach Hebden Bridge, whereas using TPE, passengers would either have to change at Mirfield or Huddersfield, plus also requiring separate tickets.

ForTheLoveOf · 7 Nov 2018

Bunglejim said:
Ok, apologies if you know how the ticketing structure works, but I’ll try to explain using Mirfield to Huddersfield as an example.

The any permitted single is £2.30. Both Northern and TPE operate those service so after splitting they would get £1.15 each. In May TPE introduced its TPE only routing at £2:10, self explanatory you can only travel with TPE so they keep all the money. In response Northern introduced its Northern only ticket at £1.80.

It doesn’t really matter how much each operator charges, they win so long as they charge more than the value of the split any permitted income. When you consider the modern refund arrangements the passenger can easily loose out if they get the wrong ticket on a 2tph service that is 4 minutes apart.

One thing to note is these routing options apply to the walk up fare, not advance purchase.

Hope that helps.

I think furlong was rather raising a rhetorical question! It is indeed unclear from the signage what exactly "Northern tickets" refers to. Ones valid only on Northern - i.e. that Any Permitted tickets are inexplicably invalid? Ones for travel in the North of England? It really needs to be clarified.

Whistler40145 · 7 Nov 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
I think furlong was rather raising a rhetorical question! It is indeed unclear from the signage what exactly "Northern tickets" refers to. Ones valid only on Northern - i.e. that Any Permitted tickets are inexplicably invalid? Ones for travel in the North of England? It really needs to be clarified.

Would it be for specific TOC tickets whereby they're the main operator on that route?

Mag_seven · 7 Nov 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
It really needs to be clarified.

It just needs to be removed from the departure board, full stop!

Wallsendmag · 7 Nov 2018

_toommm_ said:
Tickets with a thick, reassuring Yorkshire accent.

No those are softy southern tickets

Starmill · 7 Nov 2018

Mag_seven said:
It just needs to be removed from the departure board, full stop!

The problem is there isn't really any way to get the message across accurately and succinctly. The shortest way of saying it that I can think of is "Tickets marked TPE only or TransPennine Express trains only are not valid". You have to include both the abbreviation and the full name as either might appear on the ticket.

The typical customer is unlikely to have any clue what Northern or TransPennine Express trains are without clarity from the screens and these reminders are really crucial because companies like Northern could Penalty Fare anyone who uses the wrong train accidentally.

Of course simply lowering the fares to the average of the two dedicated fares would be far far better for customers and the industry than doing this nonsense.

Gerald Fiennes · 8 Nov 2018

Bunglejim said:
Ok, apologies if you know how the ticketing structure works, but I’ll try to explain using Mirfield to Huddersfield as an example.

The any permitted single is £2.30. Both Northern and TPE operate those service so after splitting they would get £1.15 each. In May TPE introduced its TPE only routing at £2:10, self explanatory you can only travel with TPE so they keep all the money. In response Northern introduced its Northern only ticket at £1.80.

It doesn’t really matter how much each operator charges, they win so long as they charge more than the value of the split any permitted income.

Apologies to Bunglejim, but the idea that AP tickets are 'cheap' is really a bit of a long running fallacy. It's true that for each AP ticket bought on this flow, each TOC will get £1.15 or so on average. However, half the time a given TOC doesn't have to have the hassle of carrying a passenger to "receive" this money. But the principle behing ORCATS/LENNON etc. is the money following the passenger, ie. when a TOC sees a passenger with an AP ticket in principle RSP will send it £2.30 not £1.15. If the passenger is not there (because they are using the other TOC), they don't get anything. By default, ORCATS will split the revenue from AP tickets approximately in proportion to the number of trains each operate. If TOCs don't think that the allocation they get is correct they can in principle challenge it and have it altered if they can prove their point (eg. through surveys).
So it depends how one looks at things. From an overall revenue point of view the passenger is being charged more if they have a ticket that could be used on all trains, in recognition of the flexibility, but if they are prepared to waive some of that and are prepared to use only 50% of the trains, they pay less. This is a way of segmenting the market which helps earn more revenue overall ...
But it's certainly true that 'Northern Tickets only' is wholly misleading and potentially a breach of the requirement for accurate price indication under Consumer Law. If any ORR staff ever visit the North, they might want to look into this....

yorkie · 8 Nov 2018

Bunglejim said:
Ok, apologies if you know how the ticketing structure works, but I’ll try to explain using Mirfield to Huddersfield as an example.

The any permitted single is £2.30. Both Northern and TPE operate those service so after splitting they would get £1.15 each. In May TPE introduced its TPE only routing at £2:10, self explanatory you can only travel with TPE so they keep all the money. In response Northern introduced its Northern only ticket at £1.80.

It doesn’t really matter how much each operator charges, they win so long as they charge more than the value of the split any permitted income. When you consider the modern refund arrangements the passenger can easily loose out if they get the wrong ticket on a 2tph service that is 4 minutes apart.

One thing to note is these routing options apply to the walk up fare, not advance purchase.

Hope that helps.

No it doesn't answer the question.

I disagree with you that a "northern ticket" is necessarily a ticket routed "northern only"; why not a ticket priced by Northern routed " Any Permitted"?

I think you misunderstood; the point furlong was making is a very valid one: it's an ambiguous term which is effectively meaningless.

It makes no sense and should not be displayed.

.

Departure board stating "Northern Tickets Only" under the 21:27 to Hebden Bridge

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