I can quite honestly say you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe when you actually understand what you are talking about you might come back to this thread and make a sincere apology!
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Greater Anglia "harmonisation" deal for drivers
- Thread starter Gooner18
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I can quite honestly say you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe when you actually understand what you are talking about you might come back to this thread and make a sincere apology!
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R
RailUK Forums
I know what you're saying but that's not the issue here. Everybody in my TOC has a set 35 hour week but some are rostered Sundays as part of the working week, some are not. I am simply saying, bring everyone in line, it's only fair.
I'm clear on what the issue is but solving it by a forced contract change and a put up or leave attitude is. Beyond the usual 'thin end of the wedge' comment. What else should we force a contract change for ? Contractual obligation for overtime ? Increased working week/hours ? Mandatory nights every 3 weeks ?
So why not go the other way. Why not remove Sundays altogether ? GTR has just implemented Sundays (agreed through negotiation) and has created a disparity with Sunday working with one set of Drivers working more than others. I'm not sure of the fairness in that either but as many on this forum like to point out. Its contractual and new Drivers have agreed to have different contracts. What will happen in the years to come I have no idea.
I'm Sunday inside and have been since I started but over the years we lost the Sunday premium. It affected me but those who joined don't know any difference. Whats to stop a similar solution to GTR where new Driver are on new contracts and Sundays are introduced through a process of natural wastage ? I like the way in which the Railway used to operate with all of us being on the same terms and same pay. More and more I have seen conditions divided. Even at y TOC and nor do I think its fair. ASLEF have a lot to answer for.
Someone has to lose when terms are harmonised. Its a sticky process but I think it would be worse with any form of forced contract change.
Wivenswold
Established Member
We should be moving towards ensuring that families and friends can have time to meet, not moving away from it, the religious aspect is irrelevant, the UK is a secular country. I completely support anyone who strikes to ensure that they can have a good home life away from work.
Those who belittle people's right to spend time with the kids will be the first to complain about badly behaved youths that didn't have a parental role-model at home because they were either sleeping or working.
Those who belittle people's right to spend time with the kids will be the first to complain about badly behaved youths that didn't have a parental role-model at home because they were either sleeping or working.
When you have members of the Christian church involved in law making and goverment policy then they can claim domain over others.
Especially since the head of the country is also head of the church...
Iskra
Established Member
Working Time Directives?
Not it isn't. It's a tolerant country.
France is a secular country.
I like my Sunday's off.
It's the only day of the week where I can guarantee to see my children.
It's the bit all the office workers dont get when baying for drivers blood for daring to refuse to work Sunday's.
Earlies - gone before kids get up and back home and normally too tired to do anything/after school clubs and bed before the kids.
Lates - wake up when kids are in school and leave before they return.
So no, I won't leave my job what I worked hard to get and maintain just because I won't forgo my contractually agreed day off to please you.
It's the only day of the week where I can guarantee to see my children.
It's the bit all the office workers dont get when baying for drivers blood for daring to refuse to work Sunday's.
Earlies - gone before kids get up and back home and normally too tired to do anything/after school clubs and bed before the kids.
Lates - wake up when kids are in school and leave before they return.
So no, I won't leave my job what I worked hard to get and maintain just because I won't forgo my contractually agreed day off to please you.
Without going off on a tangent...
I've had this out with various people and can't find any clear answer. Some say we are opted out and others say we aren't. I know for a fact that wen I signed up I had to opt out. That was a fair few years ago. But..
A 48hr week over a 17 week average is a huge chunk of hours. If you chuck a weeks leave in a 17 week period it also kills your average.
working time directive said:
There are also some exclusions for shift workers. I've also had various conversations about ;mobile workers' too :/
I know a TOC where they can work a maximum of 49hrs 30 mins in a week
Iskra
Established Member
It makes me laugh when shift workers choose to have kids, then moan that work gets in the way...
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
So, I'm guessing you'll be happy to work Sundays when you originally signed up to a Mon-Fri contract (with weekends as optional overtime)?
My industry is also a 7-day, 52-week-a-year setup (including Christmas Day) but I would be far from happy if I got told I had to work Sundays as part of the working week. So far, it has been my choice not to which my employer upholds without question. I have never worked a Sunday in all of my working life - bully for me eh?
And yes, I work just shy of a 60hr week Mon - Fri
ForTheLoveOf
Established Member
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Or the other way around. You can't have it every way - there are plenty of other, far less well paid, jobs which are only 9-5. You can't pick and choose!
And shift work certainly can work with children. I know of a couple where both partners work shifts and have young children. They just arrange the shifts so that there is always one around for the children, and then they see each other and the children during the overlap. It's all possible, it just takes organisation and flexibility. The latter being something that sadly some people lack.
BREXIT!
I think that you are missing the point, you were responding to somebody who chose a contract that did not involve Sunday work which management now want to impose.
Panupreset
Member
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- 8 May 2015
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Piece of cake. I was rostered 11 days on the trot recently. The last 7 came to a total of 64hr28m on duty including a Sunday just short of 10 hours and 5 diagrams that were modified (extended).
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scott118
Member
Thanks goodness for the implementation of the fatigue index..! 
bramling
Veteran Member
I don't think it's about "day of rest". Reality is many people **DO NOT** want to work weekends full stop. In fact, one can add other times to that as well, like Christmas, Easter, half-term weeks, summer holidays, major football matches, and probably more besides.
No matter what they get paid, within reason, these people will do anything humanly possible to get weekends off, as well as trying to get rosters based around having weekends off. Ever noticed why weekend coverage on the railway is always poor? It's not just a coincidence, it's because (1) agreements are often that weekend duties are constructed using the minimum number of people, so longer turns but at the same time fewer people having to come to work, (2) people then do rest day swaps by offering to cover uncovered weekday duties, leaving the weekend uncovered, and (3) sickness goes up at these "high demand" times.
Interestingly, the self-same people who go mad about having times like weekends and Christmas off are often the first ones to muscle in and cover the shifts if overtime is sloshing around!
I don't really think there's a solution to this - human nature is such that many want weekends off, and it's often in the "too difficult" box to find a solution, as paying extra money doesn't really work (it may appease some people for a time, but eventually they'll slip back into wanting weekends off), so what else can be done?
Having said all that, it has to be remembered that many people will have signed up to things like Sundays being outside the working week, so if that's what they signed up to then good luck to them. Likewise there's been a change over the years in more and more services running on weekends, which has made it more of an issue.
It wouldn't surprise me if some of the drivers defending their right not to work on Sundays are quite happy to treat their family to a Sunday meal out, perhaps even Christmas dinner.
The railway, like hospitality and the NHS, are service industries. Their staff should be expected to work whenever their service is required. And Sundays are a peak day for travel especially over longer distances.
It is usual in the NHS for people to work the whole weekend if rostered, so staff are either on or off for the whole weekend.
The railway, like hospitality and the NHS, are service industries. Their staff should be expected to work whenever their service is required. And Sundays are a peak day for travel especially over longer distances.
It is usual in the NHS for people to work the whole weekend if rostered, so staff are either on or off for the whole weekend.
whoosh
Established Member
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The proposal did not say how many Sundays were expected to be worked. Is it 1 in 3, 3 out of 8, 1 in 2, 2 in 3? What's the picture going to look like? What's the worst it could be?
Not detailed in the offer.
I gather it wasn't just Sundays, but other conditions as well being altered. Things like how many hours you can be moved to be allocated a running turn when 'spare' on the roster. That's quite a big deal.
A reduction in annual leave days - that was definitely a complaint about the proposed deal.
"Is what is being offered in pay, fair and reasonable for what is being asked in T&C changes? Are the changes palatable?"
That's what's really being asked when a referendum is carried out by the Union, and 92% said no. If it was just Sundays being changed I would've expected the result to be considerably different.
Not detailed in the offer.
I gather it wasn't just Sundays, but other conditions as well being altered. Things like how many hours you can be moved to be allocated a running turn when 'spare' on the roster. That's quite a big deal.
A reduction in annual leave days - that was definitely a complaint about the proposed deal.
"Is what is being offered in pay, fair and reasonable for what is being asked in T&C changes? Are the changes palatable?"
That's what's really being asked when a referendum is carried out by the Union, and 92% said no. If it was just Sundays being changed I would've expected the result to be considerably different.
If Sunday is Peak time for travelling, then how about it is charged as peak rate all day?
And to address the myt weh about the NHS at weekends. Utter tosh.
It runs a reduced service. Try and get elective surgery on a weekend. It doesn't happen, especially on the Sunday. How many GP appointments happen on Sundays? Dentists etc.
A&E is 24/7. So emergency treatment only. The statistics back this up - you are more likely to die if admitted to a hospital at a weekend than during the week due to staff/consultants not being in work.
And to address the myt weh about the NHS at weekends. Utter tosh.
It runs a reduced service. Try and get elective surgery on a weekend. It doesn't happen, especially on the Sunday. How many GP appointments happen on Sundays? Dentists etc.
A&E is 24/7. So emergency treatment only. The statistics back this up - you are more likely to die if admitted to a hospital at a weekend than during the week due to staff/consultants not being in work.
I know my job involves working Sundays, I’m not against working on a Sunday. You like others on this thread know little if anything about the subject of this thread.
You are indeed correct. Posters on this thread getting their generic anger against drivers out on this thread know nothing of what was actually involved.
deltic
Established Member
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When a TOC wins a franchise can it bring in new contracts for new staff which require, for example, Sunday and DOO or DCO working while maintaining existing contracts for TUPEd staff. And what is the average turnover of drivers and guards? So after a 7 year franchise what percentage of drivers and guards will be left on the old contracts?
Here is a question , and yes im a driver and yes I work sundays. How many here defending their stance with the my contract says I dont have to work sundays line , would use the same line with terms they like . Would any of you refuse a pay rise because your contract Still said 30 or 40k or is that an acceptable change .
dk1
Veteran Member
New drivers take on the same conditions as the drivers already at the respective depot they will work at as agreed in local agreements between the company & ASLEF.
dk1
Veteran Member
Everybody seems to have jumped onto the Sunday within the working week issue & for some reason religion. Although this has been important for some it had far more to do with holiday leave, possible Christmas working & the giving up of various local agreements particularly on spare movement.
Right, let's knock this religion BS right on its head. It ain't that and using it as an argument for/against is ridiculous .
Let's put it like this as an example. You work a 5 day week and have quite a few Saturdays off in your link and say one Sunday a month, maybe two, and with the Sunday being fairly easy to get rid of, you have the reasonable ability to plan weekends, especially if a week of rest days is involved afterwards. (You achieve this by working enough hours in 4 weeks to accrue the time off for the 5th week. Sunday is overtime. Bear this in mind, it is crucial to understanding the mentality over Sundays.
Say management and the union both then thrash out a deal and propose a 4 day week with Sundays in. Now if you are on say 50k a year and are offered 55k what looks an excellent amount of money to any non driver out there, suddenly doesn't make financial sense, You've suddenly lost your week of rest days, those regular Saturdays and Sundays off are far more likely to suddenly become tues-thurs off, Getting a Sunday off becomes a lot harder to get off as fewer people will work them any longer and when you add up the cost of what you earnt the Sunday as O/T crazily, is now worth less as a regular day to work, you should understand that if you want drivers to change something they
A: like
B. Use to have adequate recovery time from a hard week
C. Book holidays on that week off
D. Don't have to work.
then you have to both financially compensate and also guarantee that the weekends off will not be place on the end of a week of nights or squeezed to the absolute minimum to ensure adequate cover on a weekend.
Now we can have another @whhistle style post here and say to me if you don't like it, get another job. Unfortunately for those people that tend to say this very right wing reactionary comment straight out of the Daily Mail playbook, your political party of choice created this internal market and there are a lot of us who are rather savvy when it comes to economics and also self aware enough to know a little about supply and demand and how to play that system. And it's also excellent at passing on this knowledge to one another.
To term it simply. Make it worth their while and you will get past one hurdle, then you have to convince the drivers who will not work overtime at all. ((A lot more than you think). Finally, change a well established and extremely popular way of working to get time off in lieu, (the single biggest barrier to change)
Oh and one final point, would you give up a weeks worth of holidays? (4 day week and Sundays are heavily linked together, a 4 day week costs annual leave.
Let's put it like this as an example. You work a 5 day week and have quite a few Saturdays off in your link and say one Sunday a month, maybe two, and with the Sunday being fairly easy to get rid of, you have the reasonable ability to plan weekends, especially if a week of rest days is involved afterwards. (You achieve this by working enough hours in 4 weeks to accrue the time off for the 5th week. Sunday is overtime. Bear this in mind, it is crucial to understanding the mentality over Sundays.
Say management and the union both then thrash out a deal and propose a 4 day week with Sundays in. Now if you are on say 50k a year and are offered 55k what looks an excellent amount of money to any non driver out there, suddenly doesn't make financial sense, You've suddenly lost your week of rest days, those regular Saturdays and Sundays off are far more likely to suddenly become tues-thurs off, Getting a Sunday off becomes a lot harder to get off as fewer people will work them any longer and when you add up the cost of what you earnt the Sunday as O/T crazily, is now worth less as a regular day to work, you should understand that if you want drivers to change something they
A: like
B. Use to have adequate recovery time from a hard week
C. Book holidays on that week off
D. Don't have to work.
then you have to both financially compensate and also guarantee that the weekends off will not be place on the end of a week of nights or squeezed to the absolute minimum to ensure adequate cover on a weekend.
Now we can have another @whhistle style post here and say to me if you don't like it, get another job. Unfortunately for those people that tend to say this very right wing reactionary comment straight out of the Daily Mail playbook, your political party of choice created this internal market and there are a lot of us who are rather savvy when it comes to economics and also self aware enough to know a little about supply and demand and how to play that system. And it's also excellent at passing on this knowledge to one another.
To term it simply. Make it worth their while and you will get past one hurdle, then you have to convince the drivers who will not work overtime at all. ((A lot more than you think). Finally, change a well established and extremely popular way of working to get time off in lieu, (the single biggest barrier to change)
Oh and one final point, would you give up a weeks worth of holidays? (4 day week and Sundays are heavily linked together, a 4 day week costs annual leave.
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DanDaDriver
Member
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Not my TOC, but I’m willing to bet a months pay that this has sweet **** all to do with religion.
To the 9-5 (or similar) workers posting, imagine your employer says to you that they’ve decided you need to start working night shifts now, even though it wasn’t originally in your contract, but they’ll give you a pay rise which you don’t particularly want anyway.
Oh yes, and as part of this, they also reserve the right to change your start time by 12 hours at short notice, and reduce your holiday allowance.
But it wouldn’t surprise me if some of you who wouldn’t like this would visit a 24/7 Tesco, so you should shut up and put up...
To the 9-5 (or similar) workers posting, imagine your employer says to you that they’ve decided you need to start working night shifts now, even though it wasn’t originally in your contract, but they’ll give you a pay rise which you don’t particularly want anyway.
Oh yes, and as part of this, they also reserve the right to change your start time by 12 hours at short notice, and reduce your holiday allowance.
But it wouldn’t surprise me if some of you who wouldn’t like this would visit a 24/7 Tesco, so you should shut up and put up...
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