Metro article - LNER seat sensors?

404250 · 9 Nov 2018

https://www.metro.news/train-firm-gives-travellers-sensitive-way-to-find-a-seat/1302769/

TRAIN company is using sensors that detect when a seat is free...

...The sensors show green when one is free for the whole journey, amber when reserved for part of the journey and red if booked the whole way. Passengers can find the seats by viewing digital maps using the on-board wi-fi.

From reading it the description is just of the traffic light system on GWR IETs, but also mentions sensors. Do the lights turn red when someone sits down, or has Metro got it wrong?

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SaveECRewards · 9 Nov 2018

404250 said:
From reading it the description is just of the traffic light system on GWR IETs, but also mentions sensors. Do the lights turn red when someone sits down, or has Metro got it wrong?

If you look at the LNER system it’s a bunch of glued on units to the existing sets (all sets have it, even the HSTs that originated from EMT). As they’re entirely wireless they run off batteries and communicate via Bluetooth. This means they use low power eInk displays like the kindle and the lights only come on at stations and for a few minutes after.

The key feature with this tech is the sensors to detect which seats are really occupied. The initial use of this is that you can view a seat map when logged into the on-train WiFi and see which seats are actually empty. Coming soon the information screens in stations will show actual carriage loadings rather than reservation levels. Eventually they can offer short notice reservations (like CrossCountry) but without the chance of kicking someone out of their seat.

So it’s much more impressive than a normal reservation system but because it’s been retrofitted and doesn’t use wires it means compromises had to be made. The eInk display looks like a Nokia phone from the 90s and I’ve noticed sometimes a few of the above seat units in a carriage aren’t updating.

The Azuma has a much nicer built in display but without the sensors. I hope they find a way to incorporate sensors into the Azuma built in reservation system but part of me worries that they’ll just stick a bunch of these devices into the Azuma trains and not use the built in system (after all they’ve spent millions developing this system, surely they can’t just intend to use it for a couple of years on the legacy fleet?).

On GWR when the electronic system is in operation you can see the traffic lights easily through the whole carriage. With this system you can’t easily see the whole carriage.

Once they get it working reliably it’s a decent system to retrofit into older carriages but they really need to ensure that they find a way to add sensors into the existing system in the class 800 rather than just add these in.

3141 · 9 Nov 2018

SaveECRewards said:
On GWR when the electronic system is in operation you can see the traffic lights easily through the whole carriage. With this system you can’t easily see the whole carriage.

Do they have words, or is it just colours? If that's the case, there are about 7.5% of men who will have difficulty seeing the difference.

43094 · 10 Nov 2018

They also have words.

There are some technology benefits to this. However, there have been some initial difficulties at origin stations:

Train boards 15 minutes before. System not yet available, so nobody knows which seats are reserved.
People look for their seat, to find someone already in it. The usual issues ensue.
System switches on 3 minutes before departure.
Several people who have been sat 'debating' the occupancy of a seat, start to shuffle round.

So far, this seems to be less of an issue at non-origin stations.

It's also not possible to see 'at a glance' how busy a specific coach is by looking down it.

A mixed bag so far methinks.

Roy Badami · 11 Nov 2018

The obvious thing to do IMO (assuming the IETs weren't already spec'd to have sensors to provide accurate seat-level occupancy data) is to install the exact same retrofit system in the IETs, but use them for occupancy data only. You could use the exact same units and backend software, but just cover up the displays and LEDs. (I don't think you could do away with the displays altogether as I think they're needed for the commissioning process, but they could be covered once the units have been commissioned - or you could run modified firmware that disables the displays and LEDs, if that turns out to be cost effective.)

Then take a feed of the seat occupancy data from the backend system and use that for the PIS system and ultimately the reservation system.

There's no need to feed any reservation data into the retrofit system, which will therefore think all seats are available - hence the need to cover up the e-ink screens and multi-coloured LEDs on the devices. But it doesn't matter - you're only using it for the seat occupancy data feed. (Although there's also no reason not to feed it reservation data, either, if that's easier - but it might still be easier for the customer if the displays on the retrofit system were covered, so there's only one display for them to look at.)

The beauty of this approach is that it needs no new development on the retrofit system at all. And neither does it require changes to the existing on-train systems of the IET reservation system - and probably minimal or no changes to the backend systems there, either.

Of course, the seat occupancy data feed will have to be integrated into the PIS system and the reservation system, but that work needs to be done anyway...

EDIT TO ADD: And with luck the PIS integration would require no extra work beyond what's being done for the existing fleet anyway.

w1bbl3 · 11 Nov 2018

How does the retrofit system understand occupancy? Does the unit somehow detect if the seat is being sat in by say infra-red scanning or ultrasonic distance measuring or have sensors been fitted below/within every seat base? I can foresee issues with ultrasonic measuring detecting a bag on seat as an occupied seat...

TBH if the system detection element of the system works I can't see why in the longer term it couldn't be fitted to IET's and integrated with the TMS software.
A seat base type system using pressure and temperature sensors would probably be the ideal permanent solution and has the advantage of being able to powered from the in seat wiring.

gallafent · 12 Nov 2018

43094 said:
Train boards 15 minutes before. System not yet available, so nobody knows which seats are reserved.

I guess that's a problem with the way in which the system is being operated rather than with the system itself …

43094 said:
It's also not possible to see 'at a glance' how busy a specific coach is by looking down it.

How do you mean? I've found that (once inside) glancing at the two lines of pairs of lights down the sides of the carriage quickly gives a good impression of the relative level of reservations (from the relative prevalance of green/orange/red). Now, if the indicators on the outside of each carriage could do several colours, and could have the words “Unreserved” (in green), “Some reservations” (in orange) or “Fully reserved” (in red), then that would definitely improve matters. In fact, the big yellow light to indicate that the doors are unlocked should be one of those three colours, to aid in assessment from a distance. Now we're talking

gallafent · 12 Nov 2018

Roy Badami said:
Of course, the seat occupancy data feed will have to be integrated into the PIS system and the reservation system, but that work needs to be done anyway...

… and the feed from the train -> the PIS at a station, as the train approaches that station, would need to update pretty snappily, … since (particularly at major stations) the seat occupancy has a tendency to change quite a lot as people stand up when the train is approaching a station at which they will disembark!

Furrball · 12 Nov 2018

3141 said:
Do they have words, or is it just colours? If that's the case, there are about 7.5% of men who will have difficulty seeing the difference.

I am one of those!

One led. Off if seat is occupied. Flash if may be occupied for part of the journey. Lit if free

gallafent · 12 Nov 2018

Furrball said:
I am one of those!

One led. Off if seat is occupied. Flash if may be occupied for part of the journey. Lit if free

Flashing LEDs are not the answer (well, they are an answer, but one which wouldn't exactly help the tranquility … I can wear noise-cancelling headphones to cancel out the din of the HVAC and drivetrain in an IET cabin, but I'd rather not have to wear a broad-brimmed hat or even a blindfold too …). White = free for rest of journey; red = occupied during current part of journey; neither = check the text (i.e. occupied for part of rest of journey).

whhistle · 13 Nov 2018

3141 said:
Do they have words, or is it just colours? If that's the case, there are about 7.5% of men who will have difficulty seeing the difference.

If you're referring to colour blindness, not everyone who is colour blind can't see colours.
The actual figure that really struggle to tell the difference is much less than the 7.5%.

Paul Kelly · 14 Nov 2018

w1bbl3 said:
I can foresee issues with ultrasonic measuring detecting a bag on seat as an occupied seat...

I can confirm this is indeed what seems to be happening - I'm currently travelling on a lightly loaded train fitted with these sensors. People are quite spread out, with coats etc. on adjacent seats, due to the train being lightly loaded, and all the seats that are covered in any way appear to be showing as occupied - see attached for an example.

Bletchleyite · 14 Nov 2018

Indigo2 said:
I can confirm this is indeed what seems to be happening - I'm currently travelling on a lightly loaded train fitted with these sensors. People are quite spread out, with coats etc. on adjacent seats, due to the train being lightly loaded, and all the seats that are covered in any way appear to be showing as occupied - see attached for an example.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing overall, though, as it means your seat won't show as available if you put your coat on it while you go to the buffet or toilet - a serious problem if that could mean it being reserved from under you.

takno · 14 Nov 2018

Indigo2 said:
I can confirm this is indeed what seems to be happening - I'm currently travelling on a lightly loaded train fitted with these sensors. People are quite spread out, with coats etc. on adjacent seats, due to the train being lightly loaded, and all the seats that are covered in any way appear to be showing as occupied - see attached for an example.

I'm a lot happier with that than I would be with the seats showing up as available when a child was in them. And at least you have some way of keeping it reserved while you are in the toilet!

Bletchleyite · 14 Nov 2018

If they're ultrasound based I guess it's just the simple setup of measuring by ultrasound the distance to the seat base (or whatever is in the seat), and if that isn't the distance that was recorded as the distance to the seat base when it was installed then it is taken as occupied.

ainsworth74 · 14 Nov 2018

Now, the next thing to do is to couple it a CrossCountry style 10 minute reservation system. By far the biggest issue with that was the issue of turfing people out who sat in an unreserved seat that was then reserved. With this system that should be possible to avoid.

Paul Kelly · 14 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
it means your seat won't show as available if you put your coat on it while you go to the buffet or toilet

Someone mentioned the devices being very low power - it could be that they only do one "run" of the occupancy scan, a few minutes after departure, so your seat would be safe as long as you were sat in it for a few minutes after each station - not to say that's not an inconvenience in itself, though.

Aictos · 14 Nov 2018

gallafent said:
Now, if the indicators on the outside of each carriage could do several colours, and could have the words “Unreserved” (in green), “Some reservations” (in orange) or “Fully reserved” (in red), then that would definitely improve matters.

If it was possible for the station CIS screens to show how busy services are then hopefully it might be possible using a LED display which not only would show the coach letter but also the destination, next station and how busy that coach was - think about how much detail you get on the Class 220/221/390 doors and try if possible to combine all that information plus loading information onto a LED display.

gallafent said:
n fact, the big yellow light to indicate that the doors are unlocked should be one of those three colours, to aid in assessment from a distance. Now we're talking

You do realise that the big yellow lights are not just there to indicate the doors are open but actually serve a serious purpose as they are there to highlight both interlock is working ie if it's out then it means that the doors have closed as they ought to and if it's on then it means that the door release has been given so you can board the train.

Also if you take Class 185/350/450/444s for example then the interlock light usually flashes blue which indicates that is where the guard has activated the local door control panel so no the industry shouldn't be looking at making them flash any other colour just to indicate boarding information as people should and could just as easily look at the CIS screens on the platforms which has this information so they can be waiting to board a less busy carriage prior to it's arrival.

Bletchleyite · 14 Nov 2018

Indigo2 said:
Someone mentioned the devices being very low power - it could be that they only do one "run" of the occupancy scan, a few minutes after departure, so your seat would be safe as long as you were sat in it for a few minutes after each station - not to say that's not an inconvenience in itself, though.

But if it does that seats will still be reserved from under people.

Jonny · 14 Nov 2018

Indigo2 said:
I can confirm this is indeed what seems to be happening - I'm currently travelling on a lightly loaded train fitted with these sensors. People are quite spread out, with coats etc. on adjacent seats, due to the train being lightly loaded, and all the seats that are covered in any way appear to be showing as occupied - see attached for an example.

I tried it out on Saturday (10th) - I seem to remember it missing a few occupied seats, one of which I was sitting in... shown as yellow. However, it could have been that I had gone to the WC at the 'snapshot' moment.

gallafent · 16 Nov 2018

Class 403 said:
You do realise that the big yellow lights are not just there to indicate the doors are open but actually serve a serious purpose as they are there to highlight both interlock is working ie if it's out then it means that the doors have closed as they ought to and if it's on then it means that the door release has been given so you can board the train. […]

Yes of course, hence my jovial tone and the terminating smiley face

swaldman · 16 Nov 2018

Class 403 said:
You do realise that the big yellow lights are not just there to indicate the doors are open but actually serve a serious purpose as they are there to highlight both interlock is working ie if it's out then it means that the doors have closed as they ought to

I don't see why that should preclude them serving another purpose as well? But it could equally be a different light, or (perhaps additionally) integrated into a dot matrix display on the outside, so that some explanation can be given - not all passengers are going to know what coloured lights mean.

people should and could just as easily look at the CIS screens on the platforms which has this information so they can be waiting to board a less busy carriage prior to it's arrival.

Where are the platform screens that show how busy each carriage is? Maybe I've been at the wrong stations, but I've never noticed this information...
I'd be happy to have the info here instead of on the side of the train, if it were reliable. Seems to me that the need for comms must make things more complicated, though.

kje7812 · 16 Nov 2018

swaldman said:
I don't see why that should preclude them serving another purpose as well? But it could equally be a different light, or (perhaps additionally) integrated into a dot matrix display on the outside, so that some explanation can be given - not all passengers are going to know what coloured lights mean.

Where are the platform screens that show how busy each carriage is? Maybe I've been at the wrong stations, but I've never noticed this information...
I'd be happy to have the info here instead of on the side of the train, if it were reliable. Seems to me that the need for comms must make things more complicated, though.

Some operators do, LNER being the one that comes most to mind.

swaldman · 16 Nov 2018

kje7812 said:
Some operators do, LNER being the one that comes most to mind.

Ah. Don't think I've been on an LNER train south of Edinburgh, at least without a reservation, for a while...

Bletchleyite · 16 Nov 2018

kje7812 said:
Some operators do, LNER being the one that comes most to mind.

VTWC had it developed for them at Euston, it seems they then rolled it out to VTEC (as-was) as well. Not used at other VTWC stations as they don't use the ATOS system.

Aictos · 16 Nov 2018

swaldman said:
I don't see why that should preclude them serving another purpose as well? But it could equally be a different light, or (perhaps additionally) integrated into a dot matrix display on the outside, so that some explanation can be given - not all passengers are going to know what coloured lights mean.

A solution in search of a problem me thinks.

Bletchleyite said:
VTWC had it developed for them at Euston, it seems they then rolled it out to VTEC (as-was) as well. Not used at other VTWC stations as they don't use the ATOS system.

Its actually a good system as it's been in use for a few years now, see below for a example of the Virgin Trains led CIS system:

By that we can see that Coaches B and M are up to half full however Coach C is pretty much full so no chance of a seat and this is what is helpful to these waiting for trains at various stations en route.

Also we can see another example here:

Great Western Railway use a similar but different setup which can be seen here:

Another design that is available is more simple but equally as effective, see example:

This also works for commuter services as London Overground are currently testing a system at Shoreditch High Level as you can read in the linked article, it is dated Oct 2017 BUT the system is still live.

https://londonist.com/london/news/tfl-trials-new-train-loading-indicator-at-shoreditch-station

And for these of you who like to see it live, then use the following link which is available however it is only available for this station - http://shoreditch.opencapacity.co/

swaldman · 16 Nov 2018

Oh, that is nifty.

Furrball · 16 Nov 2018

From GWR board above

ABCDEBKL

There seems to be some duplication there!

Aictos · 17 Nov 2018

Furrball said:
From GWR board above

ABCDEBKL

There seems to be some duplication there!

That's the information that GWR has put into the system, nothing wrong with the system itself because it can only display what it gets told to display.

Bletchleyite · 17 Nov 2018

Class 403 said:
That's the information that GWR has put into the system, nothing wrong with the system itself because it can only display what it gets told to display.

It's quite plausible for an HST, it could be a substitute coach and they sometimes do do that without changing the letter, for some reason I've never quite been able to work out.

And in any train formed of multiple Class 350s you get more than one of each, though the LNR re-liverying seems to be removing the coach letters.

Anyway, the obvious next thing to do is to show platform zones on those displays so people can wait in the right place. VTWC do this now in text, but on the picture would be nice. If we went back to the old InterCity colour zones, that could be done on a colour display (which they will all be soon enough I reckon - probably AMOLED once it gets cheap enough as it is very clear and can be read from all directions unlike LCD) by colouring the coaches accordingly.

Metro article - LNER seat sensors?

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