Old St Pancras platforms

Teflon Lettuce · 11 Nov 2018

I was wondering if anyone could help with a query... in all my travels as a kid to St Pancras it always struck me as odd as having one particularly wide platform {6&7 IIRC} as featured in the opening credits of Porridge. Why did St Pancras have this feature? what was it for? and how comes other London termini don't have the same feature?

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mmh · 11 Nov 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
I was wondering if anyone could help with a query... in all my travels as a kid to St Pancras it always struck me as odd as having one particularly wide platform {6&7 IIRC} as featured in the opening credits of Porridge. Why did St Pancras have this feature? what was it for? and how comes other London termini don't have the same feature?

Perhaps it had been a cab / goods / parcels road?

Pigeon · 11 Nov 2018

Taxi / mail vehicle access. Many large termini had them. Paddington's had a ramp at the country end so you could go in one end and out the other.

EM2 · 11 Nov 2018

It was indeed for taxis, parcel vehicles etc. They would come up the ramp onto the forecourt, and come in through what's known as the Chinese Arch.

20Man · 11 Nov 2018

Marylebone also had a wide cab road, it was where the current platforms 2 and 3 are.

Jona26 · 11 Nov 2018

Waterloo behind what is now Boots on the gateline.

swt_passenger · 11 Nov 2018

Jona26 said:
Waterloo behind what is now Boots on the gateline.

IIRC Waterloo’s wide taxi area was also narrowed from its original width when the international alterations took place.

John Webb · 11 Nov 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
I was wondering if anyone could help with a query... in all my travels as a kid to St Pancras it always struck me as odd as having one particularly wide platform {6&7 IIRC} as featured in the opening credits of Porridge. Why did St Pancras have this feature? what was it for? and how comes other London termini don't have the same feature?

It was platforms 5 and 6, used for arrivals of the long-distance trains from Glasgow and other parts when such trains ran. As EM2 has said, taxis came into the station from the forecourt and left via a ramp at the north end of these platforms onto Pancras Road.
Liverpool Street had a cab road where a ramp down from Pindar Street Bridge went between platforms 10 and 11 - I recollect trainspotting from this ramp in the late 1950s/early 60s - it has been swept away by more recent developments.
London Bridge - the terminus section - may have had a cab road between platforms 16 and 18 - a 1937 plan in a book isn't clear if this was a cab road or not.
Cannon Street had a short cab road between Platforms 3 and 5 before 1926 and also could be accessed from Platform 4. It was an 'In and out' access, but in 1926 it became between platforms 5 and 6 when the station was rearranged.
Waterloo: Cab road between platforms 10 and 11 was accessed from York street by a ramp coming up into the station.
Charing Cross: Short cab road between platforms 5 and 6 accessed from the forecourt.
Victoria - originally two adjacent stations, both of which had cab roads, I'm uncertain how these were accessed. By 1960 there were still two cab roads accessed in one case from Elizabeth Street overbridge and the other from Eccleston Street bridge. I am uncertain how these were affected by later works on the station.
Paddington: cab road between platforms 8 and 9 and between 10 and 11 - I have fond memories of returning from grandparents in Royal Leamington Spa and the family getting into a taxi to get to Charing Cross in the 1950s.
Marylebone: Cab road between platforms 1 and 2 accessed from a ramp from Rossmore Road bridge - departure through station frontage.
(Much of the above information comes from the late Alan A Jackson's book "London's Termini" 2nd edition 1985)

Teflon Lettuce · 11 Nov 2018

John Webb said:
It was platforms 5 and 6, used for arrivals of the long-distance trains from Glasgow and other parts when such trains ran. As EM2 has said, taxis came into the station from the forecourt and left via a ramp at the north end of these platforms onto Pancras Road.
Liverpool Street had a cab road where a ramp down from Pindar Street Bridge went between platforms 10 and 11 - I recollect trainspotting from this ramp in the late 1950s/early 60s - it has been swept away by more recent developments.
London Bridge - the terminus section - may have had a cab road between platforms 16 and 18 - a 1937 plan in a book isn't clear if this was a cab road or not.
Cannon Street had a short cab road between Platforms 3 and 5 before 1926 and also could be accessed from Platform 4. It was an 'In and out' access, but in 1926 it became between platforms 5 and 6 when the station was rearranged.
Waterloo: Cab road between platforms 10 and 11 was accessed from York street by a ramp coming up into the station.
Charing Cross: Short cab road between platforms 5 and 6 accessed from the forecourt.
Victoria - originally two adjacent stations, both of which had cab roads, I'm uncertain how these were accessed. By 1960 there were still two cab roads accessed in one case from Elizabeth Street overbridge and the other from Eccleston Street bridge. I am uncertain how these were affected by later works on the station.
Paddington: cab road between platforms 8 and 9 and between 10 and 11 - I have fond memories of returning from grandparents in Royal Leamington Spa and the family getting into a taxi to get to Charing Cross in the 1950s.
Marylebone: Cab road between platforms 1 and 2 accessed from a ramp from Rossmore Road bridge - departure through station frontage.
(Much of the above information comes from the late Alan A Jackson's book "London's Termini" 2nd edition 1985)

Thanks for the info... I didn't realise the wide platforms were so common on London Termini... perhaps it was just so more "in your face" because St Pancras had so few platforms to start with.

CatfordCat · 11 Nov 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
I was wondering if anyone could help with a query... in all my travels as a kid to St Pancras it always struck me as odd as having one particularly wide platform {6&7 IIRC} as featured in the opening credits of Porridge. Why did St Pancras have this feature? what was it for? and how comes other London termini don't have the same feature?

As others have said, originally taxis but later mainly used by parcels / mail / newspaper vans. There's a recent Railway Magazine article (here) with a few photos of it in action for newspaper trains.

Jona26 said:
Waterloo behind what is now Boots on the gateline.

swt_passenger said:
IIRC Waterloo’s wide taxi area was also narrowed from its original width when the international alterations took place.

Yes - before the Eurostar station, there was a wide roadway between (then) platforms 11 and 12 (which tended to be used for main line departures, and mail / paper / parcels trains at night) - there were also a couple of short bays where locomotives could be parked. There's a diagram of it all on this page - the 1922 arrangement pretty much lasted until the rebuilding / demolition of the 'Windsor station' for Eurostar. I think another couple of platforms got fitted in to the space it had taken up.

I don't remember taxis using the space between platforms 11 and 12 (the flow of taxis across the middle of the concourse would have been hazardous) - my memories of Waterloo start in the 1970s, and taxis then used what's now the taxi road.

Taunton · 12 Nov 2018

The arrangement was also found at other terminal stations such as Glasgow Central and Liverpool Lime Street.

In more recent times it has been a bit coincidental that the typical dimensions have allowed in a number of places the insertion of two more platform tracks in the space where the roadways used to be.

Spartacus · 12 Nov 2018

Yep, used to be quite common at one time.

krus_aragon · 12 Nov 2018

Llandudno still has its cab platform, as seen in this geograph image:

Though since the recent station redevelopment you'd have to drive through the glass-fronted waiting room to get your car there.

jamesthegill · 12 Nov 2018

Brighton has one between platforms 7 & 8 which is handy for crowd control, marshalling football fans towards Falmer.

swt_passenger · 12 Nov 2018

CatfordCat said:
Yes - before the Eurostar station, there was a wide roadway between (then) platforms 11 and 12 (which tended to be used for main line departures, and mail / paper / parcels trains at night) - there were also a couple of short bays where locomotives could be parked. There's a diagram of it all on this page - the 1922 arrangement pretty much lasted until the rebuilding / demolition of the 'Windsor station' for Eurostar. I think another couple of platforms got fitted in to the space it had taken up.

I don't remember taxis using the space between platforms 11 and 12 (the flow of taxis across the middle of the concourse would have been hazardous) - my memories of Waterloo start in the 1970s, and taxis then used what's now the taxi road.

Yes, I suspect taxis had finished earlier. But I do remember occasions in the 60s having to wait to get along the concourse because mail or parcels ‘trains’ took so long to cross onto that area.

Descriptions of exactly what happened when the Eurostar terminal was built definitely seem to be on the ‘over-simplified’ side, it’s common to read something like ‘2 platforms were lost’, but it was more like 5 built on and 3 recreated elsewhere, and quite a few realigned...

CatfordCat · 12 Nov 2018

swt_passenger said:
Yes, I suspect taxis had finished earlier. But I do remember occasions in the 60s having to wait to get along the concourse because mail or parcels ‘trains’ took so long to cross onto that area.

I assume by 'trains' you mean a tractor unit and line of BRUTEs

A few generations ago, what became the cab road at Waterloo (and roadway through the arch somewhere opposite platform 11) was a rail line with a connection to Waterloo East (the bridge under what's now the pedestrian link to Waterloo East was built as a railway bridge.)

London reconnections article here may be of interest to anyone who wasn't aware

(edit - trains did at one time (occasionally) cross the concourse at Waterloo to get to Waterloo East, but wasn't quite where I thought it was - see later)

Shimbleshanks · 12 Nov 2018

Going back to the Porridge theme, wasn't one of the other uses of cab roads to transfer prisoners direct between train and black maria?

Teflon Lettuce · 12 Nov 2018

Shimbleshanks said:
Going back to the Porridge theme, wasn't one of the other uses of cab roads to stransfer prisoners direct between train and black maria?

Seriously? They really did used to transport prisoners on trains? I thought that was just done on Porridge under "artistic licence"

Shimbleshanks · 12 Nov 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
Seriously? They really did used to transport prisoners on trains? I thought that was just done on Porridge under "artistic licence"

Oh yes, it would have been quite common until reliable road motor transport became available. There have been no other way of doing it in the 19th century and early 20th.

Merthyr Imp · 12 Nov 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
Seriously? They really did used to transport prisoners on trains? I thought that was just done on Porridge under "artistic licence"

There was a sequence in the 1961 documentary film 'Terminus' showing prisoners being escorted onto a train at Waterloo. Although the footage was actually staged using actors instead of real criminals it depicted a true to life event.

swt_passenger · 12 Nov 2018

CatfordCat said:
I assume by 'trains' you mean a tractor unit and line of BRUTEs

Yes that’s what I was picturing.

A few generations ago, what became the cab road at Waterloo (and roadway through the arch somewhere opposite platform 11) was a rail line with a connection to Waterloo East (the bridge under what's now the pedestrian link to Waterloo East was built as a railway bridge.)

I don’t think that’s correct. Your earlier map (in post 10) shows the cab road entrance of the 1922 station is not aligned with the Waterloo East bridge. The single line connection was out of use well before the 1920s alterations were complete, and so there was no train sized opening in the new building that lined up with the bridge. When the Waterloo East connection was usable (for a very short period as explained by your London Reconnections link) the platform layout in the main station was completely different to the current P1-P10.

Taunton · 12 Nov 2018

Shimbleshanks said:
Oh yes, it would have been quite common until reliable road motor transport became available. There have been no other way of doing it in the 19th century and early 20th.

The thing that really did this in was the end of compartment stock, where the very end compartment would be reserved fot them and those accompanying them, who would sit on the corridor side.

Same was true of VVIPs, the Prime Minister, etc, who would have reserved the end compartment (marshalled to be a First this time!), with their Special Branch detective, just one needed in those simpler times, by the door, and their civil service retinue, also much smaller than the travelling circus nowadays. That business went with the end of compartment stock as well.

CatfordCat · 12 Nov 2018

swt_passenger said:
I don’t think that’s correct. Your earlier map (in post 10) shows the cab road entrance of the 1922 station is not aligned with the Waterloo East bridge. The single line connection was out of use well before the 1920s alterations were complete, and so there was no train sized opening in the new building that lined up with the bridge. When the Waterloo East connection was usable (for a very short period as explained by your London Reconnections link) the platform layout in the main station was completely different to the current P1-P10.

On reflection, you're right - I remembered coming out of the main station, in a straight line across a pedestrian crossing to cross the (current) cab road, and straight ahead to the bridge to Waterloo East (or vice versa) but street view shows this wasn't the same arch as parcels vans (etc) went on to the (former) cab road. I think what's now the office entrance / fire exit opposite (again street view) must have been a pedestrian only entrance to the main station concourse after the 1922 rebuilding, but must have been train sized before that.

RLBH · 13 Nov 2018

Shimbleshanks said:
Oh yes, it would have been quite common until reliable road motor transport became available. There have been no other way of doing it in the 19th century and early 20th.

Not quite the same way of doing things, but the Russians are still building dedicated prisoner transport cars. Seventy-five prisoners, eight guards, and two railway staff, with an on-board kitchen and (I believe) no corridor connection to the rest of the train. Sounds rather cosy to me!

swt_passenger · 13 Nov 2018

CatfordCat said:
On reflection, you're right - I remembered coming out of the main station, in a straight line across a pedestrian crossing to cross the (current) cab road, and straight ahead to the bridge to Waterloo East (or vice versa) but street view shows this wasn't the same arch as parcels vans (etc) went on to the (former) cab road. I think what's now the office entrance / fire exit opposite (again street view) must have been a pedestrian only entrance to the main station concourse after the 1922 rebuilding, but must have been train sized before that.

Yes, I must admit I’d made the same assumption in the past, that trains would have run through the arch, but streetview puts paid to that idea. I also dimly remembered the surface level route to the old bridge, but no matter where I’ve looked I haven’t found any pictures from that period (1960s) so far. Pictures of the stairs and escalators up to the ‘high level footbridge’ to Waterloo East are easily found of course.

Taunton · 13 Nov 2018

This is the 1900 plan of the area, showing the old Waterloo tracks, well back from Waterloo Road, and the connecting line position in the station. It looks like the space has been cleared for widening the SER approach to Hungerford Bridge and doubling the platforms on the southern side at Waterloo East. 1970 plan for comparison.

John Webb · 13 Nov 2018

The link line between the two Waterloo stations was taken out in March 1911, as part of the major rebuild of Waterloo, which took from around 1902 until 1922. A short siding remained on the Waterloo Junction (renamed Waterloo East) side until 1925.
The fourth track to Charing Cross was added in 1901. (Info from "London's Termini" by Alan Jackson.)

Ken H · 13 Nov 2018

This book has lots about londons stations, and lots of diagrams and plans
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_s...efix=londons+termin,aps,898&crid=KRLGKE8L6C26

matacaster · 13 Nov 2018

I think that since the wide platform was built around 1870 and was referred to as the cab road, it was actually for horse-drawn cabs(often the popular handsome cabs hence the name cab road) originally, this later became taxis etc when horses were replaced by internal combustion engined vehicles. Think Sherlock Holmes!

John Webb · 13 Nov 2018

Ken H said:
This book has lots about londons stations, and lots of diagrams and plans
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_14/258-5171356-8919763?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=londons+termini&sprefix=londons+termin,aps,898&crid=KRLGKE8L6C26

The first book on your link is the one I've quoted from in previous posts - there are two editions, the first from 1969 and the second from 1985; the latter is the better buy, although it doesn't cover the more recent refurbishment of St Pancras, the complete closure of Broad Street and the changes to the adjacent Liverpool Street, the major rebuild of London Bridge and the Eurotunnel terminal build at Waterloo.

Old St Pancras platforms

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