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Flatmate PFd/fined for sitting in declassified First Class

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IceAgeComing

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So this is a story that doesn't affect me but it does affect one of my flatmates. Our station is Abbey Wood and today he was travelling in to London Cannon Street on Southeastern and they ran a train with First Class and he elected to sit in it since its all declassified on our service. Normally our trains don't have First Class but they ran another type of Networker that has it; there is no first class services in the timetable and its impossible to buy a first class ticket from Abbey Wood to London Cannon Street since there isn't any first class. Yet in the incredibly rare Southeastern ticket inspection (which I don't believe happened) he and the other person sitting in the first class section were rung up for travelling in First Class without having a non-existent first class ticket. He didn't pay anything at the time and we don't quite know whether it'd be a penalty fair or some kind of legal thing that he'd go through yet.

Am I right in thinking that if they pursue him that its something that he can challenge? Surely if you can't buy First Class tickets and there aren't any First Class services provided (not even Thameslink has any; you can sit in first class wherever on our trains) then you can't be prosecuted for not having a ticket that its impossible to buy?
 
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gray1404

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Its not a question of if a first class ticket can be purchased or exists for the the journey being made. Basically, if the train being travelled on is advertised in the timetable as having first class accommodation then it is enforceable. If it doesn't then its not enforceable regardless of the stock being used.
 

Islineclear3_1

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The experts will be along soon

What time was the train and do you know its station of origin?

Usually, if a train is advertised as having no first class and one turns up (e.g. due to stock shortages etc.) with first class then I can't see a case to answer
 

steamybrian

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Some while ago a friend did a similar journey from Slade Green to Charing Cross and agreed with the ticket inspector that there is no first class fare available so standard class tickets are valid.
In your case I would be surprised if any further action was taken.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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So this is a story that doesn't affect me but it does affect one of my flatmates. Our station is Abbey Wood and today he was travelling in to London Cannon Street on Southeastern and they ran a train with First Class and he elected to sit in it since its all declassified on our service. Normally our trains don't have First Class but they ran another type of Networker that has it; there is no first class services in the timetable and its impossible to buy a first class ticket from Abbey Wood to London Cannon Street since there isn't any first class. Yet in the incredibly rare Southeastern ticket inspection (which I don't believe happened) he and the other person sitting in the first class section were rung up for travelling in First Class without having a non-existent first class ticket. He didn't pay anything at the time and we don't quite know whether it'd be a penalty fair or some kind of legal thing that he'd go through yet.

Am I right in thinking that if they pursue him that its something that he can challenge? Surely if you can't buy First Class tickets and there aren't any First Class services provided (not even Thameslink has any; you can sit in first class wherever on our trains) then you can't be prosecuted for not having a ticket that its impossible to buy?
Just to give you an idea of the legal framework, there are, broadly speaking, three kinds of "penalties" that may be 'imposed' in the case of a ticketing irregularity:

Firstly, there is a Penalty Fare, issued under The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018. This is a penalty in a sense (and many people inaccurately call it a fine), but it is legally speaking merely a higher-than-normal fare which the passenger is civilly liable for if they do one of several things, including having a ticket that is invalid by reason of them being an adult when it's a child ticket, not having the Railcard which the ticket is discounted with, travelling in first class with a standard class ticket, or simply not having a ticket at all. A Penalty Fare may only be issued in certain circumstances; for example, the train company must put up clear posters at either the station where the passenger boarded, or where they changed to that train company's services, and those posters must contain a specified standard wording. There must also be ticketing facilities at the boarding station. I have never been to Abbey Wood station so I cannot say whether Southeastern have ensured that there is sufficient and correctly worded signage in place; however, it is almost certain to have had ticketing facilities due to the presence of the ticket machines.

Secondly, there is a criminal prosecution under Byelaw 19 of the Railway Byelaws 2005. Byelaw 19 creates an offence which is committed when you remain in an area on a train which a notice states is reserved for someone else, or which is reserved for holders of tickets of a different class of accomodation to the ticket held. Byelaw 19 is what is known as a strict liability offence, which, similarly to speeding, is committed regardless of whether or not the passenger intended to commit the offence; the only defence is that the passenger had permission (whether written or verbal) to remain in the area in question (i.e. first class here) without a valid ticket.

Thirdly and finally, there is a criminal prosecution under Section 5 (usually 5(3)(a)) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA). Section 5(3)(a) creates an offence when a passenger travels, or attempts to travel, on a train without having bought a ticket, if they intend to avoid paying for the fare. So, unlike the first two options, it must be proven that the passenger had intent to avoid payment.

Now, in the context of your flatmate's predicament, the fact that there is no available first class ticket from Abbey Wood to London Cannon Street has only two relevant meanings - firstly, it produces a starting position where it would be difficult to prosecute for a RoRA offence, because it would be difficult to say that that your flatmate had intent to avoid a fare which was not even available for sale! Secondly, it is clearly morally unjust to penalise the passenger in such a circumstance. But morals, unfortunately, don't have any bearing on whether or not your flatmate is liable for a Penalty Fare, or liable for conviction under Byelaw 19 or RoRA.

What is far more relevant is that, in the National Rail timetable, no services at all for the route your flatmate took are timetabled to have first class accommodation (see attachment). In other words, any first class accommodation provided on the train stock that serves the route should be considered declassified and equivalent to standard class. This means that it is impossible for him to be liable for a Penalty Fare, or for him to be liable for conviction under Byelaw 19 or RoRA (assuming, of course, that he had a valid standard class ticket).

Coming to whether or not your flatmate can challenge what has happened, what his approach should be will depend on what Southeastern are doing or have done.

If they have issued him with a Penalty Fare, I would advise appealing this on the basis that, as per the timetable I have attached, there was no first class accommodation provided on the service which he was on, and hence the Penalty Fare is invalid. It is possible to appeal a Penalty Fare up to three times, if the appeals remain unsuccessful after a third round then it would be down to Southeastern to sue your flatmate for the value of the Penalty Fare if they so wished; alternatively they would have the option of cancelling the Penalty Fare and proceeding to prosecution if they so wished.

If, however, Southeastern have taken your flatmate's name and address, they may be considering prosecution under Byelaw 19 or RoRA. A prosecution under either would, in my view, be quite plainly malicious (both by the ordinary meaning of the word as well as the legal meaning of the word), and it would not be a particularly complex prosecution to defend (though the counsel of a solicitor may be preferable, the costs for this hopefully being awarded by the Court). Before proceeding to prosecution, most train companies write to the passenger concerned at the address which they have provided, usually asking for the passenger's version of events, or offering an out of Court settlement. If this happens, I would answer honestly as to what has happened, pointing out that it is plainly obvious that no offence has been committed. I would perhaps hold off pointing out that a prosecution may be considered malicious for the time being.

If your friend is able to post here himself that would probably be the best way forwards; alternatively it would be best if you can at least glean from him what has happened (i.e. whether he was issued with a Penalty Fare, and if so whether he has paid it or appealed against it, or whether instead his details were taken).

Hopefully this can all be resolved well before any Court appearance!
 

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IceAgeComing

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Thanks for all your help guys! He works very early so he's gone to bed; I'll try to get him to post here tomorrow if I can though.

He said that they took his name and address and didn't get a penalty fare so it sounds like that they're going down the latter route which is... worryingly although I guess entirely without grounds. Nice to know that its something not to be overly worried about though; he's definitely in the right it seems. You'd hope that this might be something that someone in Southeastern notices before they send out any letters and stops from happening: we'll see. Its not making them any more popular with me!

Might it be something worth emailing them directly about? It suggests a lack of staff training on this sort of thing for example: and a proactive complaint about it might be enough to stop it from going any further?
 

furlong

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First - what paperwork was your flatmate given at the time?
Secondly - what ticket was held and on what medium (paper/mobile/oyster etc.) - you need to be 100% sure it was otherwise valid, and some ticket types will have different considerations.

Find the exact service in the timetable on the exact day (eg with realtimetrains, brtimes websites) so you can be completely sure it was not advertised as having first class for any reason (e.g. engineering work diversion).

Yes, people can be prosecuted successfully for not holding a first class ticket that was impossible to buy, to use your words.

ForTheLoveOf mentions the wrong byelaw - it's number 19 not 18:
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

Over time, the railway industry has been removing the words from its publications that made it explicit that first class was automatically declassified in these situations. Traditionally it always has been and last time I looked there was still enough information to make that case but it may not be as easy to defend as it used to be.

(I disagree with more of the last post too - it's unwise to rely on opinions found on internet forums - contributors can get things wrong and of course that includes me too.)
 
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bionic

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The inspector doesn't know the rules. They chuck the odd 4659XX on that route and all SE metro sometimes to make up the sets and first class is declassified. SE revenue and REOs have a habit of going for easy pickings and leaving routes and stations that are prone to major ticketless travel, antisocial behaviour and sometimes downright disorder well alone. I'm 100% certain this will come to nothing. Revenue person is in the wrong. I'm sure his/her colleagues will even have pointed this out to them.
 

Mag_seven

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Over time railway industry has been removing the words from its publications that made it explicit that first class was automatically declassified in these situations. Traditionally it always has been and last time I looked there was still enough information to make that case but it may not be as easy to defend as it used to be.

Therein lies the problem - unless we can point to something that is explicitly written down that states that first class accommodation is automatically declassified when on a service that is advertised as being standard class only, then it can be difficult arguing against any penalty received for sitting in first class accommodation on such a service.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Therein lies the problem - unless we can point to something that is explicitly written down that states that first class accommodation is automatically declassified when on a service that is advertised as being standard class only, then it can be difficult arguing against any penalty received for sitting in first class accommodation on such a service.
Well, I think a timetable that shows "standard class accommodation only" provided, then surely that is an implicit declassification of any first class that ends up being provided on the stock actually used. But I agree, it is not as clear as would be ideal for it to be.
 

najaB

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Our station is Abbey Wood and today he was travelling in to London Cannon Street on Southeastern and they ran a train with First Class and he elected to sit in it since its all declassified on our service.
On the weekend no direct trains between Abbey Wood and Cannon Street were advertised as having first class, so he should be able to successfully appeal. It looks like on weekdays there is one service that conveys first class (dep. 1048).
 

Mag_seven

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Well, I think a timetable that shows "standard class accommodation only" provided, then surely that is an implicit declassification of any first class that ends up being provided on the stock actually used. But I agree, it is not as clear as would be ideal for it to be.

Then there is of course the notice on the train that clearly states something along the lines of "This accommodation is for the use of First Class ticket holders only". Does that notice trump the "Conveys Standard Class accommodation only" in the timetable? All very unclear!
 

Bletchleyite

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Erm, I don't think so!

If the written rule that it is declassified automatically has been removed, then a "common law" definition would apply, which is that First Class is still First Class, and if there are no applicable tickets (well, there are, a First Class All Line Rover) it is to all intents and purposes out of use.

I'm waiting to see a similar case surrounding Break of Journey, which is now not defined - there's a danger a "common law" definition might be "getting off the train unnecessarily"...
 

Marton

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A couple of observations

Isn't condition 15.1 relevant?

15.1. Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. (My italics)​

The service in question does not have first class accommodation - so it cant be declassified.

Secondly, Bylaw 19 (above) has ... no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place. Does that mean if I occupy a standard seat with a first class ticket because there is no first class (as has happened to me from St Pancras to Gatwick, or connecting Northern Services) I could face a penalty fare etc?
 

najaB

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Does that mean if I occupy a standard seat with a first class ticket because there is no first class (as has happened to me from St Pancras to Gatwick, or connecting Northern Services) I could face a penalty fare etc?
That's the nub of the matter. I'm of the opinion that you cannot, but others are of the opinion that you can. I'm not aware of (and would appreciate) some documentation that clarifies this one way or the other.
 

Coolzac

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Just a quick point- I don't think it has been made elsewhere.

You can't buy a first class ticket from Abbey Wood to Canon Street as the OP said. How can the inspector ask the passenger for a first class ticket if it is impossible to buy? No offence has surely been committed as the train company has no lost out on any fare due?

As others are saying, I can't imagine any prosecution would succeed.
 

bcarmicle

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A couple of observations
Secondly, Bylaw 19 (above) has ... no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place. Does that mean if I occupy a standard seat with a first class ticket because there is no first class (as has happened to me from St Pancras to Gatwick, or connecting Northern Services) I could face a penalty fare etc?

I've never seen a sign in any standard class section that says "Standard Class", so probably not.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Secondly, Bylaw 19 (above) has ... no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place. Does that mean if I occupy a standard seat with a first class ticket because there is no first class (as has happened to me from St Pancras to Gatwick, or connecting Northern Services) I could face a penalty fare etc?
No, because a first class ticket is valid in standard or first class, and hence it entitles the holder to be in either class.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Just a quick point- I don't think it has been made elsewhere.

You can't buy a first class ticket from Abbey Wood to Canon Street as the OP said. How can the inspector ask the passenger for a first class ticket if it is impossible to buy? No offence has surely been committed as the train company has no lost out on any fare due?

As others are saying, I can't imagine any prosecution would succeed.
A RoRA prosecution would be difficult, as it can hardly be said that a non-defined fare has been avoided. But the fact that a first class ticket is impossible to buy does not negate the possibility of a Byelaws prosecution, which does not care about intent or the availability of first class tickets, only about whether you hold a ticket valid for the class you travel in.

I agree that even a Byelaws prosecution would be unlikely to succeed here; however, it is unfortunately not quite as clear cut as would be ideal, and the train company may make use of that to their advantage (for example, offering an out of Court settlement which it is worth accepting simply because of the risk of not being able to prove that first is indeed declassified).
 

Bletchleyite

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I've never seen a sign in any standard class section that says "Standard Class", so probably not.

As an aside, most of Europe *does* do this (as did FGW to avoid First(f) being confused for a class designation) and I've never understood why we don't, as it does cause no end of confusion given that there are a vast range of different accommodation types, and for instance if you're in a 350/1 or /3 you might find Standard to be more comfortable than First, I certainly do.

One of the most common phrases you'll hear on a train if Standard is quite nice and quite empty is "Is this First Class?"
 

WelshBluebird

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If there is no first class fare available, and the service is not advertised as having first class accommodation in the timetable, then the idea someone can be penalty fared, fined or prosecuted for sitting in first class if a train with first class accommodation turns up is insane.

The Turbo's used on the Severn Beach line in Bristol still have their old first class sections, and on some of the units it is still marked as first class on the exterior and interior of the train. However GWR would end up as a laughing stock if they tried to PF or prosecute anyone for sitting in those sections (and indeed they don't, I usually sit in them and happily buy standard class tickets, the only tickets available for the journeys on the line, from the guard when I am travelling between stations on the line that do not have ticketing facilities).

Or another example, GWR sometimes borrow a SWR 158 to use as they are short of 15x units. None of GWR's 15x units has first class but the SWR ones do. Is anyone here seriously suggesting that sitting in the first class section in that example would result in a PF or prosecution?
 

CNash

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I have never been to Abbey Wood station so I cannot say whether Southeastern have ensured that there is sufficient and correctly worded signage in place; however, it is almost certain to have had ticketing facilities due to the presence of the ticket machines.

FYI, Abbey Wood is managed by TfL and has a ticket office, ticket machines and a gateline which is staffed from first to last train. I'm fairly certain that Penalty Fare posters are displayed in the station building.

It's very common to see Networkers with orange interiors, which will have First Class sections in some carriages, on the routes from Dartford or Gillingham to the London Terminals.
 
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