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GWR - Penalty Fair Notice - Reading to Theale on a London 1-6 to Basingstoke Season Ticket

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badelie

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Hi

This morning I received a penalty fare notice for the following journey:
  • Travelling from London Paddington (PAD) to Theale (THE)
  • Annual Travelcard valid between Basingstoke (BSK) and London Zones 1-6 on Any Permitted route
  • Ticket presented (validity 24-Oct-2019) along with the photocard
  • Ticket inspectors waiting on the platform on arrival, where I was told my ticket is not valid for travel between Reading (RDG) & THE. I was passed on to a more experienced inspector who took my details and issued me with a Penalty Fare Notice for not having a ticket to travel between Reading RDG and THE. I believed my ticket to be valid for travel and asked her about that but she was not interested in discussing it.
  • Afterwards one of the other inspectors ran after me to ask which station I had travelled from. The train I arrived on had only stopped in Reading en route so I don't understand why he was double checking this information.
Am I correct in believing that my ticket is valid for this journey? Or did I make a mistake when I bought the BSK season? I checked the National routing Guide when buying the ticket and as travel from PAD to THE was on the same valid Route on both destinations, I bought the BSK ticket to give myself more route options. The route map doesn't show THE and groups it together with Reading and Reading West, so I assumed they were all within the same Routing Group/Point. I would appreciate some guidance to the validity of my season ticket as well as any points I may be able to raise when appealing.
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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Hi

This morning I received a penalty fare notice for the following journey:
  • Travelling from London Paddington (PAD) to Theale (THE)
  • Annual Travelcard valid between Basingstoke (BSK) and London Zones 1-6 on Any Permitted route
  • Ticket presented (validity 24-Oct-2019) along with the photocard
  • Ticket inspectors waiting on the platform on arrival, where I was told my ticket is not valid for travel between Reading (RDG) & THE. I was passed on to a more experienced inspector who took my details and issued me with a Penalty Fare Notice for not having a ticket to travel between Reading RDG and THE. I believed my ticket to be valid for travel and asked her about that but she was not interested in discussing it.
  • Afterwards one of the other inspectors ran after me to ask which station I had travelled from. The train I arrived on had only stopped in Reading en route so I don't understand why he was double checking this information.
Am I correct in believing that my ticket is valid for this journey? Or did I make a mistake when I bought the BSK season? I checked the National routing Guide when buying the ticket and as travel from PAD to THE was on the same valid Route on both destinations, I bought the BSK ticket to give myself more route options. The route map doesn't show THE and groups it together with Reading and Reading West, so I assumed they were all within the same Routing Group/Point. I would appreciate some guidance to the validity of my season ticket as well as any points I may be able to raise when appealing.
Unless I'm misunderstanding things, I don't think you were covered by your season ticket. Your season ticket covers you as far as Reading West in the direction of Theale. The fact that Theale is associated with the Reading Routeing Point Group does not mean you can travel there - that's not how the mapped routes work. You can only double back within a Routeing Point Group (e.g. Reading RP Group), not within all the stations associated with an RP Group.

For you to be valid to Theale you would need a ticket either to Theale or beyond, or one for which you can trace a route between Reading and Westbury group (the next Routeing Point Group along). Since that's not possible on the permitted route maps from London to Basingstoke, you were indeed off route.

I would pay up any settlement or Penalty Fare you are offered, seeing as Paddington undoubtedly had the facilities necessary to buy an extension ticket from Reading West to Theale, which is what was required to travel to Theale.

All is not lost: you can change your season ticket to a more suitable route without a fee, by going to a ticket office and either paying, or being refunded, the pro-rata difference between the different routes' rates.
 
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badelie

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All is not lost: you can change your season ticket to a more suitable route without a fee, by going to a ticket office and either paying, or being refunded, the pro-rata difference between the different routes' rates.
Thanks for that, assuming there are no other replies to the contrary, I could do a changeover as you suggest. One question, I bought this Season Ticket online from Greater Anglia. Would GWR ticket office at Paddington be willing to do the changeover in practice? I would change to a THE to London 1-6 (which is the exact same price - is there a chance of me being able to changeover whilst I wait?
 

JB_B

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The fact that Theale is a member of the Reading Routeing Point Group does not mean you can travel there - that's not how the mapped routes work. You can only double back within a Station Group (e.g. Reading Stations), not within a Routeing Point Group. ..

Are you sure about that FTLO? I've always understood that the group stations rule relates to Routeing Point Groups ( and isn't anything to do with Fare Groups - I assume that's what you meant by "Station Group" ).

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-guide-section-3-routeing.70716/#post-1192141

I think the problem for the OP is that Theale isn't a member of Reading Routeing Point Group.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Thanks for that, assuming there are no other replies to the contrary, I could do a changeover as you suggest. One question, I bought this Season Ticket online from Greater Anglia. Would GWR ticket office at Paddington be willing to do the changeover in practice? I would change to a THE to London 1-6 (which is the exact same price - is there a chance of me being able to changeover whilst I wait?
There is no restriction on where you can obtain a changeover in the NRCoT. That does not mean that ticket offices won't make up restrictions, either because they don't care about the rules, or because they have been instructed incorrectly!

A season ticket from Theale to London Zones 1-6 route "AAA Basingstoke" may be just what you are after: it is valid either from Theale or from Basingtoke and costs just £3.10 more a week han the regular "Any Permitted" version.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Are you sure about that FTLO? I've always understood that the group stations rule relates to Routeing Point Groups ( and isn't anything to do with Fare Groups - I assume that's what you meant by "Station Group" ).

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-guide-section-3-routeing.70716/#post-1192141

I think the problem for the OP is that Theale isn't a member of Reading Routeing Point Group.
Right you are; mixed it up and fixed it. It's certainly very confusing having Routeing Point Groups, associated stations to Routeing Point Groups and Station Groups, each of which have their own special rules around validity!
 

badelie

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Your season ticket covers you as far as Reading West in the direction of Theale. The fact that Theale is associated with the Reading Routeing Point Group does not mean you can travel there - that's not how the mapped routes work. You can only double back within a Routeing Point Group (e.g. Reading RP Group), not within all the stations associated with an RP Group.

I think the problem for the OP is that Theale isn't a member of Reading Routeing Point Group.

I was specifically thinking about easement 300391 which states:
Customers travelling from Theale, Aldermaston, Midgham, Thatcham and Newbury Racecourse via Newbury may travel via Reading West. This easement applies in both directions.​
I believe I had misunderstood this to mean, I can board a train at Reading West instead of Theale or the other way round.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I was specifically thinking about easement 300391 which states:
Customers travelling from Theale, Aldermaston, Midgham, Thatcham and Newbury Racecourse via Newbury may travel via Reading West. This easement applies in both directions.​
I believe I had misunderstood this to mean, I can board a train at Reading West instead of Theale or the other way round.
A little understanding is a dangerous thing!

If you're interested in things like permitted routes and mapped routes, the forum holds fares workshops fairly frequently, where you can find out some more about how this kind of thing works.
 

badelie

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A season ticket from Theale to London Zones 1-6 route "AAA Basingstoke" may be just what you are after: it is valid either from Theale or from Basingtoke and costs just £3.10 more a week han the regular "Any Permitted" version.

A little understanding is a dangerous thing! If you're interested in things like permitted routes and mapped routes, the forum holds fares workshops fairly frequently, where you can find out some more about how this kind of thing works.

Thank you for both of the above and the quick responses. I'm definitely interested but not well-informed - I'll definitely be taking up your advice.
 

furlong

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£20 as that was higher than RDG-THE Single Fare x2

You said you told them you boarded the train at Paddington? Under the current regulations, they have no discretion and must charge you twice the fare (peak or off-peak) from Paddington if that is where you told them you boarded. If that's the case, I would suggest the penalty is unenforceable and an appeal ought to succeed.

However the bad news is if you did appeal on the grounds the penalty was unlawful and they realised their mistake early enough then they might try to withdraw it before your appeal is heard and prosecute you for travelling beyond where you had paid to go instead, and defending that would not be straightforward - you might end up with a conviction or agreeing a much larger financial settlement.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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You said you told them you boarded the train at Paddington? Under the current regulations, they have no discretion and must charge you twice the fare (peak or off-peak) from Paddington if that is where you told them you boarded. If that's the case, I would suggest the penalty is unenforceable and an appeal ought to succeed.

However the bad news is if you did appeal on the grounds the penalty was unlawful and they realised their mistake early enough then they might try to withdraw it before your appeal is heard and prosecute you for travelling beyond where you had paid to go instead, and defending that would not be straightforward - you might end up with a conviction or agreeing a much larger financial settlement.
Exactly - there may also be other flaws with the Penalty Fare (e.g. non-Regulations-compliant signage) but ultimately the risk is that they don't waste their time with appeals and proceed straight to prosecution. Those kinds of flaws are only worth pointing out where there is no risk of prosecution, e.g. if there were a Penalty Fares scheme in Scotland, or if you had not actually committed an offence under the Byelaws/RoRA.

For £20 I think it's a relatively cheap way of finding out the limitations of your ticket! (A conviction or settlement would almost certainly go into the low to mid three figures)
 

badelie

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You said you told them you boarded the train at Paddington? Under the current regulations, they have no discretion and must charge you twice the fare (peak or off-peak) from Paddington if that is where you told them you boarded. If that's the case, I would suggest the penalty is unenforceable and an appeal ought to succeed.

For £20 I think it's a relatively cheap way of finding out the limitations of your ticket! (A conviction or settlement would almost certainly go into the low to mid three figures)

I haven't paid it yet, but I'm planning to pay in a few days. The revenue inspector who issued it insisted that I don't pay (!) and appeal if I feel I have grounds for appeal. Someone else later asked where I had boarded the train. Just to confirm that I understood correctly, the fact that my season ticket is valid between PAD and RDG, is not considered when calculating the Penalty Fare? I could have easily left the train at RDG and re-joined, especially as it is a 5 minute stop at the platform.
 

furlong

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If you had boarded at Reading it would have been charged from Reading. If they did not know where you boarded it would have been charged from the last stop. There is no scope for taking into account tickets already held. So feel lucky that they broke the rules (putting their jobs on the line to save you money) and let you off by letting you pay less than was due!

I'd suggest it's always best to pay a penalty fare in full as soon as you can as that makes the (already legally dubious IMHO) route to convert it into a prosecution more difficult for them.
 

badelie

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If they did not know where you boarded it would have been charged from the last stop.
Revenue protection officers certainly knew where I boarded the train. I do appreciate that I would've had to pay much more than £20, whether error or kindness is besides the point.

I'd suggest it's always best to pay a penalty fare in full as soon as you can as that makes the (already legally dubious IMHO) route to convert it into a prosecution more difficult for them.
Certainly planning to pay it, but I have to wait for it to be loaded onto the revenue protection system - it only happened at 8am today :)
 
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gray1404

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If the OP has valid grounds to appeal because it was issued incorrectly, it would be really poor form on the TOC to then try and take the matter further when they have messed up already.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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If the OP has valid grounds to appeal because it was issued incorrectly, it would be really poor form on the TOC to then try and take the matter further when they have messed up already.
It would be, but unfortunately poor form is not going to stand up as a defence in Court :(
 

badelie

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If the OP has valid grounds to appeal because it was issued incorrectly, it would be really poor form on the TOC to then try and take the matter further when they have messed up already.
Also worth noting that the PFN indicates RDG to THE (rather than my actual PAD to THE journey) so although I understand the PFN is not issued with the correct amount I don't see how I would prove this for an appeal.
 

gray1404

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I'm guessing an extract from the regulations showing that the PF should have been issued from the origin station, rather then from Reading, would be how this would be proved. What are the chances though of a TOC taking matters further just because they loose an appeal. My understand is that the majority respect the outcome of the appeals process and leave it. I have had PFs overturned on technical issues before and never heard anything further.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I'm guessing an extract from the regulations showing that the PF should have been issued from the origin station, rather then from Reading, would be how this would be proved. What are the chances though of a TOC taking matters further just because they loose an appeal. My understand is that the majority respect the outcome of the appeals process and leave it. I have had PFs overturned on technical issues before and never heard anything further.
I think the thing is it's simply risky appealing it. The risk is that the PF is cancelled and prosecution proceeded with. Even if this cancellation is not permitted, I don't think OP would have any defence to a Byelaw prosecution. Over the sake of £20 I would not advise it. If the amount in question were the proper cost of the PF - i.e. twice the single fare from Paddington - then perhaps an appeal might be more justified in terms of risk vs reward.
 

the chairman

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The season is valid from Paddington to Reading West. The penalty fare can only be charged on the divergence at Reading West to Theale. The fare is £3.70 from both Readings. If the West price were lower that would be the fare the PF was based on.
 

badelie

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I checked the relevant legislation (The Railways (Penalty Fare) Regulations 2018) this afternoon (and unless I've missed something) it agrees with @furlong - there is no reference to situations where a valid ticket is produced for part of a journey. Section 9.1 and 9.3 are very specific that it is charged from the origin station (unless this is not known).

I don't think OP would have any defence to a Byelaw prosecution.
Certainly agree with your risk v reward arguement.

I can also report back that the PAD ticket office supervisor refused to process a changeover as I "bought the ticket online from Trainline" - although I bought it from Greater Anglia. Not the worst outcome but I was certainly hoping not to have to go across town to Liverpool Street.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I can also report back that the PAD ticket office supervisor refused to process a changeover as I "bought the ticket online from Trainline" - although I bought it from Greater Anglia. Not the worst outcome but I was certainly hoping not to have to go across town to Liverpool Street.
Greater Anglia and several other train companies use Trainline's backend, and the "issuing office" of the ticket (assuming you were sent it by post) will therefore appear to be from The Trainline.

Worth putting in a complaint to GWR about the ticket office supervisor getting the changeover wrong - what they did was a breach of contract and IMO it's worth mentioning those words to show the seriousness - but it's probably the least of the incompetence which lurks in that place.

You might still have luck at another London Terminal's ticket office. Some are remotely competent and know the rules!
 

jkdd77

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For the record, a TOC cannot prosecute if an appeal against a PF succeeds (even if, as here, an offence was committed):
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/11/made
(3) Where a person falling within paragraph (1)(a) has appealed against the penalty fare under regulation 16, proceedings for any of the offences specified in paragraph (4)* may only be brought against that person for the same failure to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket if the operator, on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged, notifies the relevant Appeal Panel that the penalty fare is cancelled before—
(a)the relevant Appeal Panel has decided the outcome of the appeal under regulation 16; or
(b)the time period mentioned in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 expires,
whichever is sooner.

*RRA and railway byelaws.

It is debatable (indeed, in my view, downright doubtful) whether TOC may lawfully cancel a paid PF and prosecute instead simply because a passenger has exercised his or her statutory right to appeal- even if the cancellation pre-dates the appeal decision, there would be an argument that the prosecution is an 'abuse of process' if the cancellation was made in order to thwart the exercise of a statutory right.

It is the clear intent of Parliament (and Government) that passengers should have the right to an appeal, and for TOCs to cancel and prosecute out of spite solely because a valid appeal was made would seem to thwart that intent, by, in effect, punishing those passengers who seek to exercise their statutory right to appeal, render the legislation, and the statutory rights contained therein, useless if passengers cannot dare to exercise their rights- rights which Parliament has decided they should have.

If the PF was unpaid, or, if after it was issued, it came to light that there had been deception on the part of the recipient (such as lying about their origin station) which influenced the decision to issue the PF or the details therein, then it would be a different matter.

If I were in the OP's position, I would pay it, and also appeal it. I'm not aware of any cases where passengers have been prosecuted following a successful appeal against a PF, so I suggest that the risk is very remote in practice.

Of course, if the appeal succeeds, then the prosecution is absolutely statute-barred.
 
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yorkie

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I was specifically thinking about easement 300391 which states:
Customers travelling from Theale, Aldermaston, Midgham, Thatcham and Newbury Racecourse via Newbury may travel via Reading West. This easement applies in both directions.​
I believe I had misunderstood this to mean, I can board a train at Reading West instead of Theale or the other way round.
Easements are intended for online journey planners. This easement would apply if you had a ticket from Theale via Newbury. But you did not have a ticket from Theale. Nor were you travelling via Newbury. So the easement did not apply.

So unfortunately your ticket wasn't valid between Reading West and Theale.
Are you sure about that FTLO? I've always understood that the group stations rule relates to Routeing Point Groups ( and isn't anything to do with Fare Groups - I assume that's what you meant by "Station Group" ).

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-guide-section-3-routeing.70716/#post-1192141

I think the problem for the OP is that Theale isn't a member of Reading Routeing Point Group.
I can confirm @JB_B is correct.
I can also report back that the PAD ticket office supervisor refused to process a changeover as I "bought the ticket online from Trainline" - although I bought it from Greater Anglia. Not the worst outcome but I was certainly hoping not to have to go across town to Liverpool Street.
Paddington ticket office? To use a quote from Red Dwarf, I wouldn't trust some of them to open a can of sardines that was already open.

They are wrong, just as they were wrong the last time I asked them a question, when they also made a (incorrect) comment about Trainline!

They really have a bee in their bonnet about Trainline and say that you can't do this or that if you bought a ticket from them, when it is both untrue that Trainline was the retailer and untrue that you can't have what you ask for.
 

gray1404

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For the record, a TOC cannot prosecute if an appeal against a PF succeeds (even if, as here, an offence was committed):
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/11/made


*RRA and railway byelaws.

It is debatable (indeed, in my view, downright doubtful) whether TOC may lawfully cancel a paid PF and prosecute instead simply because a passenger has exercised his or her statutory right to appeal- even if the cancellation pre-dates the appeal decision, there would be an argument that the prosecution is an 'abuse of process' if the cancellation was made in order to thwart the exercise of a statutory right.

It is the clear intent of Parliament (and Government) that passengers should have the right to an appeal, and for TOCs to cancel and prosecute out of spite solely because a valid appeal was made would seem to thwart that intent, by, in effect, punishing those passengers who seek to exercise their statutory right to appeal, render the legislation, and the statutory rights contained therein, useless if passengers cannot dare to exercise their rights- rights which Parliament has decided they should have.

If the PF was unpaid, or, if after it was issued, it came to light that there had been deception on the part of the recipient (such as lying about their origin station) which influenced the decision to issue the PF or the details therein, then it would be a different matter.

If I were in the OP's position, I would pay it, and also appeal it. I'm not aware of any cases where passengers have been prosecuted following a successful appeal against a PF, so I suggest that the risk is very remote in practice.

Of course, if the appeal succeeds, then the prosecution is absolutely statute-barred.

Interesting. This is useful to know and have something concentrate that the TOC cannot prosecute just because they do not like the fact a passenger has successfully appealed a PF.
 

furlong

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It is debatable (indeed, in my view, downright doubtful) whether TOC may lawfully cancel a paid PF and prosecute instead

My take would be that this ought only to be done where the company (as a whole - not the authorised collector) receives new evidence that was not available to it at the time the penalty was imposed, and which, if known at the time, would have led to a decision not to impose that specific PF. An example might be evidence retrieved from another party's CCTV, or a subsequent witness statement, indicating that the passenger lied to the authorised collector about the journey made. (I would exclude 'left unpaid' as a legitimate reason.)
 

badelie

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Worth putting in a complaint to GWR about the ticket office supervisor getting the changeover wrong - what they did was a breach of contract and IMO it's worth mentioning those words to show the seriousness - but it's probably the least of the incompetence which lurks in that place.

Paddington ticket office? To use a quote from Red Dwarf, I wouldn't trust some of them to open a can of sardines that was already open.

I'm certainly considering a complaint to GWR about Paddington ticket staff as this isn't the first time they've made a mistake.

For the record, a TOC cannot prosecute if an appeal against a PF succeeds (even if, as here, an offence was committed):
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/11/made

It is the clear intent of Parliament (and Government) that passengers should have the right to an appeal, and for TOCs to cancel and prosecute out of spite solely because a valid appeal was made would seem to thwart that intent, by, in effect, punishing those passengers who seek to exercise their statutory right to appeal, render the legislation, and the statutory rights contained therein, useless if passengers cannot dare to exercise their rights- rights which Parliament has decided they should have.

My take would be that this ought only to be done where the company (as a whole - not the authorised collector) receives new evidence that was not available to it at the time the penalty was imposed, and which, if known at the time, would have led to a decision not to impose that specific PF. An example might be evidence retrieved from another party's CCTV, or a subsequent witness statement, indicating that the passenger lied to the authorised collector about the journey made. (I would exclude 'left unpaid' as a legitimate reason.)

I read the entirety of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 yesterday (afterall that's my day job), but didn't mention anything as didn't want to appear to be taking the mickey when I was clearly in the wrong - so I'm glad some established forum members have mentioned the statutory rigths of anyone issues with a PF and the extent to which a TOC can push for prosecution.

I think this is what happened, as nobody asked me initially. They only asked after the PFN was issued and I had climbed up a fairly long flight of stairs.

I have also realised my own mistake, as now I am certain I told the inspectors about the origin of my journey. I snapped back at the last inspector for asking me, telling him: "Paddington, why? You could've asked your colleagues!" - rude on my part but reminds me that I indeed told them where I had boarded the train. Which is convincing me to go down the Pay and Appeal route. I'll edit above to correct.

One last question, how long does it take for a PFN to show up on GWR website? I would've assumed 24hrs is a long enough wait - details get loaded in at the end of the day. But it is nowhere to be seen yet.
 
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