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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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61653 HTAFC

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I don't suffer from "door prejudice" and so am quite happy with long distance services having doors at thirds - my point was more that local services don't work with end doors (due to excessive dwell) and so need doors at thirds, and so classes 155, 156 and 158 are not well suited at all to the kind of services they are ending up on.
The 155s are going to the East Riding, the end doors shouldn't be too much of a problem there.
 
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superkev

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Watching a procession of seemingly random units passing through Sowerby Bridge (do Nevill hill allocate units with some sort of fruit machine) I think it will need a step change at the depots so that a 195 actually turns up when allocated.
K
 

pemma

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I guess those are needed to allow a DMU to run to Windermere instead of the originally planned EMU. I did wonder if we'd see a change of that kind, though I'm surprised it's extras rather than just a couple of 3-car EMUs being ordered as DMUs instead.

There's been rumours about 3 extra 769s in lieu of the 12 x class 150 vehicles from GWR. 3 x 195s allowing 3 x 331s to operate on other routes releasing 3 x 319s for conversion to 769s maybe?
 

Class37.4

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I don't suffer from "door prejudice" and so am quite happy with long distance services having doors at thirds - my point was more that local services don't work with end doors (due to excessive dwell) and so need doors at thirds, and so classes 155, 156 and 158 are not well suited at all to the kind of services they are ending up on.

Well until they are replaced there are too many of them to fix that problem anyway.
 

Class37.4

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Watching a procession of seemingly random units passing through Sowerby Bridge (do Nevill hill allocate units with some sort of fruit machine) I think it will need a step change at the depots so that a 195 actually turns up when allocated.
K

To be fair The Calder Valley has become more random since the timetable change with 155's and more 158's being required elsewhere.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well until they are replaced there are too many of them to fix that problem anyway.

In a way no, but what Northern could have done would be to put fully-refurbished Class 158s (I'm thinking an ATW or ScotRail Inverness style refurb with quality seats at a reasonable spacing, not ironing boards) on Northern Connect where they would fit very well, and the new order being for Class 172-like CAF units for Manchester and Liverpool suburbans so they would be operated with a combination of 150s and new units allowing everything to have a layout conducive to high loadings and quick dwell times as well as reducing time lost on the likes of the CLC by having better acceleration.

That would leave what to do with 156s, but there are probably enough very quiet branch lines to put them on, stuff like Ormskirk-Preston, Colne, the Cumbrian Coast, the Bentham line and the likes, where loadings are too low for the end doors to be an issue, but once you put a PRM bog in a single 153 wouldn't be enough. Or maybe even send them off to ScotRail to form 3-car units which might be better than the 153 plan.
 

Bletchleyite

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Watching a procession of seemingly random units passing through Sowerby Bridge (do Nevill hill allocate units with some sort of fruit machine) I think it will need a step change at the depots so that a 195 actually turns up when allocated.

At least at the moment all of the types of unit the "random unit generator" can kick out can couple to one another.

Mind you, in the days of the 175s they managed it OK, it was only 14x and 15x that were "generated at random" then.
 

krus_aragon

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At least at the moment all of the types of unit the "random unit generator" can kick out can couple to one another.

Mind you, in the days of the 175s they managed it OK, it was only 14x and 15x that were "generated at random" then.
Weren't the 175s all coming from somewhere else (Chester) every morning? They'd be on particular diagrams by design.
 

Bertie the bus

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If it’s got wheels and a seat for the driver then it will do. That has always been Northern’s, and its predecessors’, philosophy. It isn’t helped by the fact that many of the longer distance service don’t require units with a higher speed limit. 142s and 150s sometimes worked the York – Blackpool North services and kept to time.
 

pemma

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There is no shortage of 319s so I doubt it is needed to do this to convert more of them.

But if Northern don't need as many pure EMUs it make might sense, especially for Porterbrook considering 5 of the 319s were originally secured on temporary leases ending in 2020.
 

krus_aragon

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Not all the 175s went to Chester overnight. A number stayed in Stockport sidings overnight.
I suspected that might have been the case for a handful. Still, there'd be less randomness in their allocation to diagrams (excepting reliability failures in their early days).
 

Philip

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Are 195s likely to be cleared for use on the Bolton and Chorley lines soon? Just wondering now that it's a bit up in the air as to whether TPE will revert to running via Bolton or continue via Wigan. If the latter, you'd expect Northern to run their Cumbria services via Bolton instead.
 

superkev

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If it’s got wheels and a seat for the driver then it will do. That has always been Northern’s, and its predecessors’, philosophy. It isn’t helped by the fact that many of the longer distance service don’t require units with a higher speed limit. 142s and 150s sometimes worked the York – Blackpool North services and kept to time.
I believe almost all northern dmu services are timed for the slowest units.
Bit of a waste with 90mph 350 and 400hp 158's; 100mph slow off the mark 170's; 75mph non aircon the rest and now to come the ???mph 520hp 195's.
K
 

Bungle965

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Philip

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Those diagrams predate the final batch of 175s entering service.

Nonetheless I don't think any NW ones started from Stockport sidings even into TPE days, I think one started from Longsight and worked ECS to the Airport to work an early morning service, but any that stayed overnight at Stockport would probably have worked Mid-Cheshire services the following day.
 

pemma

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Nonetheless I don't think any NW ones started from Stockport sidings even into TPE days, I think one started from Longsight and worked ECS to the Airport to work an early morning service, but any that stayed overnight at Stockport would probably have worked Mid-Cheshire services the following day.

The one that appeared on Mid-Cheshire started at Chester and did Chester-Altrincham-Manchester as its' first service and then Manchester-Warrington-Llandudno, with a 150 booked to work an early Chester-Warrington-Manchester service which then took the place of the 175 on the Mid-Cheshire.
 

Philip

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The one that appeared on Mid-Cheshire started at Chester and did Chester-Altrincham-Manchester as its' first service and then Manchester-Warrington-Llandudno, with a 150 booked to work an early Chester-Warrington-Manchester service which then took the place of the 175 on the Mid-Cheshire.

I know about that one, was referring to the 175s that worked Mid-Cheshire services during the day before Northern took over the route. A 175 also used to work to Stockport in the morning and wait in the bay platform for an hour or so before forming the 09:5x Stockport to Holyhead via Warrington, which you may be thinking of.
 

Chester1

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I can see 195s on non-Connect routes.

Based off the performance on both Northern and TPE since the May 2018 timetable change I would be amazed if all the Northern Connect routes were actually introduced without infrastructure upgrades, namely the Oxford Road and Piccadilly Capacity Scheme.

It's proven to be over-ambitious. The combination of two separate commuter stopping services into a Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester Airport service has been pretty disastrous. If the train is stuck whether it be through signal/points failure or displaced crew in Liverpool or Manchester then the entire route has had it. Apply that logic to Chester to Leeds, Liverpool to Leeds and Bradford to Manchester Airport and you have a recipe for something deeply unsavoury.

Don't get me started on the Bradford to Manchester Airport service. I'd love to know where the new path is magically found for that one once it gets to the Styal Line. Maybe they'll end up drawing lots or whoever gets to Piccadilly first gets to go to the Airport while the late running train behind has to terminate at Oxford Road!

Some of the Northern Connect routes will have to be re-evaluated based upon what they've learnt from combining multiple services into a long distance stopping service and the limitations faced at the Ordsall Chord.

Some refurbished 158s are due to be used for 10% of Northern Connect services and Windermere-Airport will need to be run by DMUs not EMUs. If the Northern Connect services are changed Northern should be able to match the services exactly to the number of 195s so that none are used on non connect services and no connect services are run by 158s.
 

Philip

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Some refurbished 158s are due to be used for 10% of Northern Connect services and Windermere-Airport will need to be run by DMUs not EMUs. If the Northern Connect services are changed Northern should be able to match the services exactly to the number of 195s so that none are used on non connect services and no connect services are run by 158s.

I don't think 195s should be dismissed for all non connect services; their door layout will be useful for some diesel commuter services not under the 'Connect' brand, particularly those on fast routes such as both of the Manchester-Blackburn routes and peak time Northern services on the Standedge line. Likewise some of the Connect routes even away from the North East would be adequately served with 158s; Blackpool-York and Leeds-Nottingham for example.
 

Ianigsy

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Watching a procession of seemingly random units passing through Sowerby Bridge (do Nevill hill allocate units with some sort of fruit machine) I think it will need a step change at the depots so that a 195 actually turns up when allocated.
K

In the last couple of months I've taken the same train from Hebden Bridge to Manchester on three separate Thursdays and it's produced a 158, 156 and 142...
 

507021

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Hi can I ask is there an option for additional units since as far as I was aware they aren't getting the full amount of cascaded unit

As far as I'm aware, Northern are still due all of the 5x 156s, 8x 158s and 16x 170s from ScotRail, as well as 17x 150s (possibly 19 if the 150/0s do transfer as I've been informed) from GWR and 3x 150s from West Midlands Trains.

There are options for more Civity units though. It is not known how many options there are at the moment, other than extending the 331/1s to five car units.
 

deltic08

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As far as I'm aware, Northern are still due all of the 5x 156s, 8x 158s and 16x 170s from ScotRail, as well as 17x 150s (possibly 19 if the 150/0s do transfer as I've been informed) from GWR and 3x 150s from West Midlands Trains.

There are options for more Civity units though. It is not known how many options there are at the moment, other than extending the 331/1s to five car units.
We should be electrifying not building more polluting diesels after IPCC report on air pollution. Government should be forcing Failing Grayling to reverse his decision forthwith as we don't have time to prat about with alternatives and diesels under the wires.
 

507021

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We should be electrifying not building more polluting diesels after IPCC report on air pollution. Government should be forcing Failing Grayling to reverse his decision forthwith as we don't have time to prat about with alternatives and diesels under the wires.

I do agree with you on that.

However in my opinion, until electrification is resumed, any extra 195s are much welcomed.
 
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