Any news on proposals to build an alternative route between Exeter & Plymouth?

deltic08 · 17 Nov 2018

Cliveblackpool said:
R. Plym - the old GWR route Lydford, Tavistock South, Tavistock Junction?

Sorry, I meant River Tamar not Plym. Route from Bere Alston to Plymouth could be doubled as that would see 2tph.

What is the linespeed on this section. 60mph?

What is the track condition like from Crediton to Meldon, Is it fit for passenger use and at what speed?

RailUK Forums

furnessvale · 17 Nov 2018

Clayton said:
Railheading makes sense now in a way it didn’t in the sixties. Most households have a car, but not every household member has one, and no one wants to drive into a city. Driving a few miles on quiet roads to catch a train or drop off someone is more appealing than fighting through urban traffic.

Unfortunately, the modern iteration of railheading is called "park and ride", and takes part at the END of the long journey, not the beginning, leaving rail or bus with a few crumbs from the transport table.

yorksrob · 17 Nov 2018

RT4038 said:
The point of building an alternative line is to avoid the seawall section at Dawlish. Both Torbay and Plymouth (with Exeter, the most populous parts of Devon) are affected by the Dawlish problem. Rebuilding a rural, circuitous old railway line via Okehampton will not help Torbay at all, and will be a backwater line of little use to Plymouth. The dots may join the largest settlements on the north and west of Dartmoor, but these settlements are small in the scheme of things. No-one would think of joining these dots with a railway if there hadn't been a dinosaur line in the past. The Barnstaple line certainly acts as a pointer - not exactly large passenger numbers!
There is not much appetite from many on here for a high speed line because they are nostalgic railway enthusiasts, joining lines on a map, rather than thinking about transport economics and where the majority of people really want to travel.

The reality is that the majority od potential passengers want to access the railway somewhere near to where they live. They don't want to have to change trains lots of times, especially onto already overcrowded services.

deltic08 · 17 Nov 2018

furnessvale said:
Unfortunately, the modern iteration of railheading is called "park and ride", and takes part at the END of the long journey, not the beginning, leaving rail or bus with a few crumbs from the transport table.

I have never experienced your type of park and ride only at the end of a journey. My outward legs of a journey usually have park and ride at the START as well.

Park and ride is just a station with a bigger car park. Nothing special.

Okehampton would make an excellent park and ride with the A30 adjacent.

The Ham · 17 Nov 2018

RT4038 said:
The point of building an alternative line is to avoid the seawall section at Dawlish. Both Torbay and Plymouth (with Exeter, the most populous parts of Devon) are affected by the Dawlish problem. Rebuilding a rural, circuitous old railway line via Okehampton will not help Torbay at all, and will be a backwater line of little use to Plymouth. The dots may join the largest settlements on the north and west of Dartmoor, but these settlements are small in the scheme of things. No-one would think of joining these dots with a railway if there hadn't been a dinosaur line in the past. The Barnstaple line certainly acts as a pointer - not exactly large passenger numbers!
There is not much appetite from many on here for a high speed line because they are nostalgic railway enthusiasts, joining lines on a map, rather than thinking about transport economics and where the majority of people really want to travel.

It depends on what you want the other line to achieve.

If you are looking for a route which is to replace the coast route (and therefore cutting off the existing settlements) then a HS route makes sense. It should be noted that to achieve the fastest journey time possible that the line would have to avoid South Devon, possibly to the extent that journey times to the were increased.

If you are looking for a route which can be used when needed to avoid the occasional problems with the sea wall then having it serve other places then is a possible contender.

It's also worth noting, recently when there were problems with the line there was also difficultly getting buses. If the Okehampton route existed then the only people wishing to use the buses would have been people traveling to/from stations between Exeter and Plymouth. That would have been a lot less of a problem as there a have been a lot less people wanting to use the buses.

As rather than (say) 300 people getting off a train and using a bus or may have only been 50 people. The latter would fit in one bus the further would require about 5 buses.

Of course there's then the issue of cost, a new line with a Plymouth to Exeter journey time of 45 minutes then what would that cost? At least 3 times as much as the route via Okehampton, probably easily 5 times the cost and maybe even getting on for 10 times the cost.

furnessvale · 17 Nov 2018

deltic08 said:
I have never experienced your type of park and ride only at the end of a journey. My outward legs of a journey usually have park and ride at the START as well.

Park and ride is just a station with a bigger car park. Nothing special.

Okehampton would make an excellent park and ride with the A30 adjacent.

Cities such as Manchester have installations such as Hazel Grove, where a transfer from a long distance car journey to rail (or mainly bus) can be made to avoid city congestion.

What you are describing is a station car park.

Clayton · 17 Nov 2018

furnessvale said:
Unfortunately, the modern iteration of railheading is called "park and ride", and takes part at the END of the long journey, not the beginning, leaving rail or bus with a few crumbs from the transport table.

Er, you aren’t making sense. Journeys can have two directions- how can the park and ride be only at the end?

HowardGWR · 17 Nov 2018

Cliveblackpool said:
R. Plym - the old GWR route Lydford, Tavistock South, Tavistock Junction?

I think he meant the river Tamar.

Edit: sorry, missed his correction post. The line from Crediton to Okehampton is very fast, being dead straight and level. I went on one of these summer Sunday specials and I am sure that we were doing well over 60 for much of it. Updated from the freight line that it was, I am certain 90 plus would be achieved by a 159 or similar. From memory, the lifted stretch from Meldon to Bere Alston was not slow, so I imagine that would be updatable as the restored Waverley line has been. One can cycle most of it so a field reconnaisance is possible.

furnessvale · 17 Nov 2018

Clayton said:
Er, you aren’t making sense. Journeys can have two directions- how can the park and ride be only at the end?

Fair enough.

"Unfortunately, the modern iteration of railheading is called "park and ride", and takes part at the END of the long ROAD LEG OF THE journey, not the beginning, leaving rail or bus with a few crumbs from the transport table."

That better?

Cliveblackpool · 17 Nov 2018

deltic08 said:
Sorry, I meant River Tamar not Plym. Route from Bere Alston to Plymouth could be doubled as that would see 2tph.
What is the track condition like from Crediton to Meldon, Is it fit for passenger use and at what speed?

Thanks, the LSWR is probably the faster route, and less obstructions plus double track.
There was a thread not that long ago, querying a temporary reduction in speed, 30mph? at the start of the Sunday Season Exeter - Okehampton route, causing timetable problems. Track inspected and I think the linespeed quoted at 50mph.
The alignments on parts of the track especially around Lydford should be capable of high speeds.

Before Okehampton was closed, Places like Bude used to join the train at Okehampton, either by car or Jennings Coaches at the time.
I think there should be more bus routes working in conjunction with rail, and included in rail timetables. They could sub contract them etc to bus companies.
Try getting to Port Issac by public transport, either from Bodmin Parkway, or Exeter, possible, but takes a while, especially double checking times!

Ash Bridge · 17 Nov 2018

Cowley said:
I think that’s about right. Around six miles longer but with quite a gentle alignment.

Dr Hoo is pretty close at 58.5 miles although as he noted the routeing into Plymouth (North Road) is different and now uses the former wartime connection to the GW line at St Budeaux since the early sixties closure of the SR line via Devonport Kings Road, this reduces the distance to 57.75 miles

Ash Bridge · 17 Nov 2018

Cliveblackpool said:
Thanks, the LSWR is probably the faster route, and less obstructions plus double track.
There was a thread not that long ago, querying a temporary reduction in speed, 30mph? at the start of the Sunday Season Exeter - Okehampton route, causing timetable problems. Track inspected and I think the linespeed quoted at 50mph.
The alignments on parts of the track especially around Lydford should be capable of high speeds.

I believe right up to the end (1968) Coleford Junction-Samford Courtenay line speeds were 85/90 mph; likewise as you mention about Lydford, trains would be up to 70 mph coming down from Sourton summit through Bridestowe and likewise from Lydford through Brentor in the 80 mph range, only slowing for the sharp curves approaching Tavistock. All this was on trains of the day (E.g. Class 42 + 9/10 mk1 coaches) how much better could a modern train such as a 158/159 dmu improve on this?

MarkyT · 17 Nov 2018

furnessvale said:
...the modern iteration of railheading is called "park and ride", and takes part at the END of the long ROAD LEG OF THE journey, not the beginning, leaving rail or bus with a few crumbs from the transport table."

In my view, railheading simply means transferring from road to rail at some point in the overall journey. Modern edge city P&Rs in UK are a peculiar phenomenon, usually bus based, and often serve the sole function of transferring parking motorists directly to a city centre. They are not usually integrated in any way to other local public transport and often actively abstract heavily from local rural bus services, but funding mechanisms for subsidising them do not allow more holistic thinking with many urban unitary authorities not being part of any kind of larger transport authority or partnership and sometimes being at political loggerheads with their rural neighbours. A more rational setup might be for express buses that serve a P&R then fan out onto a number of rural routes serving satellite villages in adjacent authorities, and then provide an interchange at the P&R site to serve intermediate destinations towards the city centre on local urban routes. As to Okehampton, one or more stations in the vicinity of this town could serve as railhead(s) for significant parts of north west and central Devon as well as north Cornwall, with connecting road coach and local bus links in addition to a large car park for those choosing to drive themselves and able to leave a car there all day.

Pigeon · 17 Nov 2018

deltic08 said:
What is the difference in mileage Exeter-Plymouth via Dawlish and via Okehampton?
Could via Oakhampton be made a 90mph railway? A 100mph railway is much more expensive to build and maintain.

Mileage is roughly the same. Maximum gradient is rather less, although it's still a long way from being flat. It was, of course, originally built as a main line. What sort of line speed that implies using modern standards I don't know, but it's pretty curly over much of the Plymouth end because of the river valleys, although the Exeter end is a lot straighter. Overall I reckon it'd probably work out about the same as the GW route, and I don't see any point trying to make it significantly faster.

I certainly don't support the idea for a "high speed" route. There's a reason both the Exeter-Plymouth routes that were built went a long way round and were still a bit manky: it's several miles across and made of granite. Proposing to take a bull-at-a-gate approach to that to save a few minutes on a journey to which there is no faster alternative in any case would be kind of daft even if it wasn't a National Park.

MarkyT · 17 Nov 2018

Pigeon said:
Mileage is roughly the same. Maximum gradient is rather less, although it's still a long way from being flat. It was, of course, originally built as a main line. What sort of line speed that implies using modern standards I don't know, but it's pretty curly over much of the Plymouth end because of the river valleys, although the Exeter end is a lot straighter. Overall I reckon it'd probably work out about the same as the GW route, and I don't see any point trying to make it significantly faster.

I certainly don't support the idea for a "high speed" route. There's a reason both the Exeter-Plymouth routes that were built went a long way round and were still a bit manky: it's several miles across and made of granite. Proposing to take a bull-at-a-gate approach to that to save a few minutes on a journey to which there is no faster alternative in any case would be kind of daft even if it wasn't a National Park.

That's why I think a Haldon base tunnel higher speed (200+kph) cutoff from Exeter to Newton Abbot makes most sense to save about 5 miles and up to 10 minutes for expresses, with incremental improvements west thereof, and possibly longer term a new route from Wrangaton to Plymouth closely hugging the A38 in the bottom of the valley rather than the current higher level route hugging the sides of the hills. the A38 is actually already much straighter than the existing railway. Perhaps creation of the new rail link could be combined with a rebuild and upgrade of the road to motorway standards, maybe with the rail alignment in the central reservation for a significant distance to make road junctions simpler. All longer distance trains to stop Exeter - Newton Abbot - Totnes - Plymouth, as the vast majority do today. Because all trains stop you don't need high speed through and approaching Newton and Totnes, although a 'Dainton base tunnel' might be an idea...

Meerkat · 17 Nov 2018

I just can’t see a cut off being built unless the Dawlish route has to be abandoned.
Spending huge amounts on both just isn’t going to happen IMO.
Building new routes Newton Abbot-Totnes and Totnes-Plymouth might be worth looking at.
Abandoning the old routes and not having to fudge electrification through them might make the cost seem more reasonable.
Maybe a new Ivybridge parkway next to the A38.

MarkyT · 17 Nov 2018

Meerkat said:
I just can’t see a cut off being built unless the Dawlish route has to be abandoned.
Spending huge amounts on both just isn’t going to happen IMO.
Building new routes Newton Abbot-Totnes and Totnes-Plymouth might be worth looking at.
Abandoning the old routes and not having to fudge electrification through them might make the cost seem more reasonable.
Maybe a new Ivybridge parkway next to the A38.

And maybe a Chudleigh one too. I don't see expenditure on resilience via Dawlish completely undermining a cut-off, which is the ONLY realistic way of improving, let alone matching, journey times Exeter - Plymouth, a major concern and handicap of rail today compared to road coaches which can actually be faster, non-stop, centre to centre, as noted by a passenger interviewed on local TV news during the 2014 disruption.

deltic08 · 17 Nov 2018

Cliveblackpool said:
Thanks, the LSWR is probably the faster route, and less obstructions plus double track.
There was a thread not that long ago, querying a temporary reduction in speed, 30mph? at the start of the Sunday Season Exeter - Okehampton route, causing timetable problems. Track inspected and I think the linespeed quoted at 50mph.
The alignments on parts of the track especially around Lydford should be capable of high speeds.

HowardGWR said:
The line from Crediton to Okehampton is very fast, being dead straight and level. I went on one of these summer Sunday specials and I am sure that we were doing well over 60 for much of it. Updated from the freight line that it was, I am certain 90 plus would be achieved by a 159 or similar. From memory, the lifted stretch from Meldon to Bere Alston was not slow, so I imagine that would be updatable as the restored Waverley line has been. One can cycle most of it so a field reconnaisance is possible.

Ash Bridge said:
I believe right up to the end (1968) Coleford Junction-Samford Courtenay line speeds were 85/90 mph; likewise as you mention about Lydford, trains would be up to 70 mph coming down from Sourton summit through Bridestowe and likewise from Lydford through Brentor in the 80 mph range, only slowing for the sharp curves approaching Tavistock. All this was on trains of the day (E.g. Class 42 + 9/10 mk1 coaches) how much better could a modern train such as a 158/159 dmu improve on this?

We seem to be onto a winner straight away.

The Plymouth-Bere Alston line appears to be in good fettle and 60mph now.

Exeter-Crediton is in good fettle at 60mph now. The true junction needs moving back to Coleford.

Crediton-Okehampton is capable of carrying passenger trains at 50mph, possibly 60mph.

That only leaves the 20 miles or so between Bere Alston and Okehampton. This could be rebuilt as 90mph double track to allow fast passing of trains like a dynamic loop assuming the A30 Okehampton Bypass Tunnel was built to double track width and Meldon Viaduct is capable of taking trains again. I know it is maintained still.
It would have to be signalled from either Exeter or Plymouth.

Borders Rail was built, including signalling and 7 new stations, for £15m per mile so we are looking at £300million. Peanuts by to-days figures. A roundabout on the A19 near Newcastle has just cost £80m so 20 miles of reinstated railway seems good value for money. 20 miles of motorway would cost twice that at £35m per mile.

The 60mph sections could be upgraded with time to 90mph.

This would put Okehampton and Tavistock back on the rail map giving a local service now and provide resilience to rail during bad weather when the Dawlish route is closed. No need for bustitution, just send them around the other way. To maintain route knowledge, timetable a few that way each day anyway if times are comparable.

And to answer the critics, it is not "enthusiasts" wanting to relive the past but practicalities of sorting out a weakness in the system with what we already have.

Bald Rick · 17 Nov 2018

deltic08 said:
We seem to be onto a winner straight away.

The Plymouth-Bere Alston line appears to be in good fettle and 60mph now.

Exeter-Crediton is in good fettle at 60mph now. The true junction needs moving back to Coleford.

Crediton-Okehampton is capable of carrying passenger trains at 50mph, possibly 60mph.

That only leaves the 20 miles or so between Bere Alston and Okehampton. This could be rebuilt as 90mph double track to allow fast passing of trains like a dynamic loop assuming the A30 Okehampton Bypass Tunnel was built to double track width and Meldon Viaduct is capable of taking trains again. I know it is maintained still.
It would have to be signalled from either Exeter or Plymouth.

Borders Rail was built, including signalling and 7 new stations, for £15m per mile so we are looking at £300million. Peanuts by to-days figures. A roundabout on the A19 near Newcastle has just cost £80m so 20 miles of reinstated railway seems good value for money. 20 miles of motorway would cost twice that at £35m per mile.

The 60mph sections could be upgraded with time to 90mph.

This would put Okehampton and Tavistock back on the rail map giving a local service now and provide resilience to rail during bad weather when the Dawlish route is closed. No need for bustitution, just send them around the other way. To maintain route knowledge, timetable a few that way each day anyway if times are comparable.

And to answer the critics, it is not "enthusiasts" wanting to relive the past but practicalities of sorting out a weakness in the system with what we already have.

What makes you think that an estimate put together in a couple of paragraphs on a public forum is more practical, or more accurate, than one developed after months of study by a team of railway engineering professionals?

Let’s not forget the £15m/mile for Borders is largely single track, at outturn prices when constructed, and by a distance the cheapest per mile of any all new railway in this country for 20 years.

Let’s also not forget that the Okehampton branch is fit for 50mph for a couple of sprinters a week. I doubt very much that it could cope with longer / heavier trains on a regular basis without a complete rebuild from the formation up. Mel don viaduct will have had maintenance sufficient to stop it collapsing, again I doubt it has had maintenance sufficient for a regular service of passenger trains. And what’s the signalling like from Crediton?

Ash Bridge · 17 Nov 2018

deltic08 said:
We seem to be onto a winner straight away.

The Plymouth-Bere Alston line appears to be in good fettle and 60mph now.

Exeter-Crediton is in good fettle at 60mph now. The true junction needs moving back to Coleford.

Crediton-Okehampton is capable of carrying passenger trains at 50mph, possibly 60mph.

That only leaves the 20 miles or so between Bere Alston and Okehampton. This could be rebuilt as 90mph double track to allow fast passing of trains like a dynamic loop assuming the A30 Okehampton Bypass Tunnel was built to double track width and Meldon Viaduct is capable of taking trains again. I know it is maintained still.
It would have to be signalled from either Exeter or Plymouth.

Borders Rail was built, including signalling and 7 new stations, for £15m per mile so we are looking at £300million. Peanuts by to-days figures. A roundabout on the A19 near Newcastle has just cost £80m so 20 miles of reinstated railway seems good value for money. 20 miles of motorway would cost twice that at £35m per mile.

The 60mph sections could be upgraded with time to 90mph.

This would put Okehampton and Tavistock back on the rail map giving a local service now and provide resilience to rail during bad weather when the Dawlish route is closed. No need for bustitution, just send them around the other way. To maintain route knowledge, timetable a few that way each day anyway if times are comparable.

And to answer the critics, it is not "enthusiasts" wanting to relive the past but practicalities of sorting out a weakness in the system with what we already have.

I do agree with what you say; plus if Bere Alston-Tavistock does get reinstated then the actual gap to Meldon is only around a further 15 miles, I would imagine a major decisive factor would be Meldon Viaduct, if it is proved capable of being refurbished for future railway use then surely a major saving on the rebuilding costs could be made, from memory initial studies suggested it likely a replacement structure built alongside may be required.

Cliveblackpool · 17 Nov 2018

Correction to my previous post. Just found the link. Crediton to Okehampton is 55 mph
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-a-speed-restriction-4-7.147803/#post-3011679

Meldon Viaducts is one main reason the line was closed. I would have thought the North viaduct could be overhauled. Guess 15 mph max if it was reused.
Probably a new viaduct would be better in the long run, a suspension bridge would look the nicest option to complement the old viaducts.(£££)
I'm trying to make a list of major improvements to freight/ passenger services in Devon and Cornwall in recent years/ planned, got as far as new station at Ivybridge, replacing semaphore signalling in Cornwall (ongoing) Resilience project Exeter - Newton Abbott, ongoing, yet another study!

yorksrob · 17 Nov 2018

Bald Rick said:
What makes you think that an estimate put together in a couple of paragraphs on a public forum is more practical, or more accurate, than one developed after months of study by a team of railway engineering professionals?

Let’s not forget the £15m/mile for Borders is largely single track, at outturn prices when constructed, and by a distance the cheapest per mile of any all new railway in this country for 20 years.

Let’s also not forget that the Okehampton branch is fit for 50mph for a couple of sprinters a week. I doubt very much that it could cope with longer / heavier trains on a regular basis without a complete rebuild from the formation up. Mel don viaduct will have had maintenance sufficient to stop it collapsing, again I doubt it has had maintenance sufficient for a regular service of passenger trains. And what’s the signalling like from Crediton?

Perhaps the sensible compromise is to rebuild the line double track to the junction near Yeoford, then single line with a couple of loops each way to enable additional trains to overtake where needed (excursions, diversions etc). The prime purpose would be a fit for purpose passenger service to Okehampton, Tavistock and central Devon with enough loops to take diverted main line services where necessary.

We should build the line to enable these.

snowball · 17 Nov 2018

Cliveblackpool said:
Probably a new viaduct would be better in the long run, a suspension bridge would look the nicest option to complement the old viaducts.(£££)

Is there anywhere where a railway goes over a suspension bridge? I always thought they weren't rigid enough.

Sir Felix Pole · 17 Nov 2018

Ash Bridge said:
I do agree with what you say; plus if Bere Alston-Tavistock does get reinstated then the actual gap to Meldon is only around a further 15 miles, I would imagine a major decisive factor would be Meldon Viaduct, if it is proved capable of being refurbished for future railway use then surely a major saving on the rebuilding costs could be made, from memory initial studies suggested it likely a replacement structure built alongside may be required.

The Network Rail study in 2014 suggested that a new structure was required.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/West-of-Exeter-Route-Resilience-Study.pdf

Meldon viaduct, an 165 metre long and 46 metre high listed structure located immediately south of Meldon quarry, is too badly deteriorated for re-use. A new structure would be required, adjacent to the existing viaduct.

deltic08 · 17 Nov 2018

Bald Rick said:
What makes you think that an estimate put together in a couple of paragraphs on a public forum is more practical, or more accurate, than one developed after months of study by a team of railway engineering professionals?

Let’s not forget the £15m/mile for Borders is largely single track, at outturn prices when constructed, and by a distance the cheapest per mile of any all new railway in this country for 20 years.

Let’s also not forget that the Okehampton branch is fit for 50mph for a couple of sprinters a week. I doubt very much that it could cope with longer / heavier trains on a regular basis without a complete rebuild from the formation up. Mel don viaduct will have had maintenance sufficient to stop it collapsing, again I doubt it has had maintenance sufficient for a regular service of passenger trains. And what’s the signalling like from Crediton?

I left the West Country in 1968 to move north for a year, met my wife and stayed so don't know what the remains of the LSWR are like now but do you agree Plymouth-Bere Alston is a fit-for-purpose railway? I assume it is worked as tokenless block or even "one engine in steam" as I assume Crediton-Okehampton is.

What is the difference in axle weights between a Sprinter and a Voyager/800 IEP which will be the diverted trains? Three short tons per axle and they can all run at SP speeds so are light as far as axle loading goes. I'm surprised Sprinters can even travel at 50mph with passengers to Okehampton. I was expecting someone to say 25mph. CliveBlackpool has just confirmed 55 mph., even better.

We all know that engineers cost a job on the safe side. A "Rolls Royce job" and then add optimism bias whjch is now 60% I hear. NR is more expensive than that even. I was looking at the bare minimum that is there already and functioning.

But Borders Rail had the complete formation rebuilt for double track although only single track was put down in places. Single track still had to have cuttings and embankments drained to prevent slips and linear drains placed.

Borders Rail is 31 miles long with just under 10 miles of double track,5 high speed, 1 slow speed point ends and 7 stations, 3 of them double platforms.

The gap in LSWR is 20 miles of double track, no point ends, one double platform and 5 miles likely to be paid for by a developer. 18 miles of single track east of Okehampton will need upgrading to 90mph over a period of time and high speed points at the ends of single line for non stop diversions.

A single track viaduct as long as Meldon was built at Hardengreen over the A7 all in the same price so a replacement double track alongside Meldon would cost very little more.

Comparing with Borders Rail £340m, will this line really cost £2billion as professionally costed for just over 20 miles of new railway? That works out at £100m per mile. Barking even in 2018.

The whole Borders Rail was signalled with control from Edinburgh within the cost

yorksrob · 17 Nov 2018

If a new structure is required, so be it.

If only the L&SWR had built an ordinary masonry viaduct, a lot of these issues would have been resolved already.

deltic08 · 17 Nov 2018

yorksrob said:
Perhaps the sensible compromise is to rebuild the line double track to the junction near Yeoford, then single line with a couple of loops each way to enable additional trains to overtake where needed (excursions, diversions etc). The prime purpose would be a fit for purpose passenger service to Okehampton, Tavistock and central Devon with enough loops to take diverted main line services where necessary.

We should build the line to enable these.

Exactly

deltic08 · 17 Nov 2018

yorksrob said:
If a new structure is required, so be it.

If only the L&SWR had built an ordinary masonry viaduct, a lot of these issues would have been resolved already.

Ditto. There are so many doom and gloom merchants on here. Left to them nothing would be done in this country. Wait a minute...…………………….

yorksrob · 17 Nov 2018

deltic08 said:
I left the West Country in 1968 to move north for a year, met my wife and stayed so don't know what the remains of the LSWR are like now but do you agree Plymouth-Bere Alston is a fit-for-purpose railway? I assume it is worked as tokenless block or even "one engine in steam" as I assume Crediton-Okehampton is.

What is the difference in axle weights between a Sprinter and a Voyager/800 IEP which will be the diverted trains? Three short tons per axle and they can all run at SP speeds so are light as far as axle loading goes. I'm surprised Sprinters can even travel at 50mph with passengers to Okehampton. I was expecting someone to say 25mph. ClveBlackpool has just confirmed 55 mph.

We all know that engineers cost a job on the safe side. A "Rolls Royce job" and then add optimism bias whjch is now 60% I hear. NR is more expensive than that even. I was looking at the bare minimum that is there already and functioning.

But Borders Rail had the complete formation rebuilt for double track although only single track was put down in places. Single track still had to have cuttings and embankments drained to prevent slips and linear drains placed.

Borders Rail is 31 miles long with just under 10 miles of double track,5 high speed, 1 slow speed point ends and 7 stations, 3 of them double platforms.

The gap in LSWR is 20 miles of double track, no point ends, one double platform and 5 miles likely to be paid for by a developer. 18 miles of single track east of Okehampton will need upgrading to 90mph over a period of time and high speed points at the ends of single line for non stop diversions.

A single track viaduct as long as Meldon was built at Hardengreen over the A7 all in the same price so a replacement double track alongside Meldon would cost very little more.

Comparing with Borders Rail £340m, will this line really cost £2billion as professionally costed for just over 20 miles of new railway? That works out at £100m per mile. Barking even in 2018.

The whole Borders Rail was signalled with control from Edinburgh within the cost

deltic08 said:
Ditto. There are so many doom and gloom merchants on here. Left to them nothing would be done in this country. Wait a minute...…………………….

Quite. I think many in the industry are concerned with establishing 'lack of business cases' not to do things, which goes for a lot on here.

Bald Rick · 17 Nov 2018

deltic08 said:
I left the West Country in 1968 to move north for a year, met my wife and stayed so don't know what the remains of the LSWR are like now but do you agree Plymouth-Bere Alston is a fit-for-purpose railway? I assume it is worked as tokenless block or even "one engine in steam" as I assume Crediton-Okehampton is.

What is the difference in axle weights between a Sprinter and a Voyager/800 IEP which will be the diverted trains? Three short tons per axle and they can all run at SP speeds so are light as far as axle loading goes. I'm surprised Sprinters can even travel at 50mph with passengers to Okehampton. I was expecting someone to say 25mph. CliveBlackpool has just confirmed 55 mph., even better.

We all know that engineers cost a job on the safe side. A "Rolls Royce job" and then add optimism bias whjch is now 60% I hear. NR is more expensive than that even. I was looking at the bare minimum that is there already and functioning.

But Borders Rail had the complete formation rebuilt for double track although only single track was put down in places. Single track still had to have cuttings and embankments drained to prevent slips and linear drains placed.

Borders Rail is 31 miles long with just under 10 miles of double track,5 high speed, 1 slow speed point ends and 7 stations, 3 of them double platforms.

The gap in LSWR is 20 miles of double track, no point ends, one double platform and 5 miles likely to be paid for by a developer. 18 miles of single track east of Okehampton will need upgrading to 90mph over a period of time and high speed points at the ends of single line for non stop diversions.

A single track viaduct as long as Meldon was built at Hardengreen over the A7 all in the same price so a replacement double track alongside Meldon would cost very little more.

Comparing with Borders Rail £340m, will this line really cost £2billion as professionally costed for just over 20 miles of new railway? That works out at £100m per mile. Barking even in 2018.

The whole Borders Rail was signalled with control from Edinburgh within the cost

The Bere Alston branch is fit for purpose for the purpose it serves: a 2 hourly shuttle using, I presume, a 2 coach Sprinter. It will not be fit for purpose for an hourly or half hourly service of longer trains. The same applies from Crediton to Okehampton, just more so.

Voyagers can not use SP speeds. That extra 3 tonnes per axle makes a lot of difference. The 800s have a higher axle load still, so I’d be surprised if they can either.

Engineers do not always cost ‘on the safe side’. The Borders Railway is a good example, as is the
Ebbw Vale reopening, both of which were well over the Budget used for the business case. As were many others.

The signalling is important. Yes, the Borders line included signalling in its cost. But Okehampton - Crediton (and arguably Cowley Junction) and the Bere Alston branch will need significant upgrading unless everyone is content with an, at best, 2 hourly service.

Any news on proposals to build an alternative route between Exeter & Plymouth?

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