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Paddington to Birmingham services

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Yes, I think it was introduced with the advent of Chiltern Railways. In a post about two different GWR main lines, I couldn't think of a better shorthand for the line.
.

If I recall correctly the Chiltern name first appeared with the NSE Thames & Chiltern division which covered all of the NSE services from Paddington and Marylebone in circa 1989. Of course this didn't refer to the name of the line itself, but very soon the name for the line and the trains became synonymous. Prior to that I think it was just referred to as the "New Road".

A bit more information;
https://www.nsers.org/what-was-nse.html
 
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Far north 37

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They were called "Inter City" units because they came from Swindon and that was an old GWR expression, for a key express on the very route we are discussing, Paddington to Birmingham. Strangely, the first and the last builds of traditional dmus, at Swindon works, were the only ones of this designation. Essentially they were normal Mk 1 express carriages above the frame, including some side corridor vehicles, and normal dmu mechanicals below the frame. The old ones were generally associated with the Edinburgh-Glasgow line, although several were used for their first couple of years in the 1950s on Birmingham to Cardiff runs. The newer ones as I described never seemed to find the right niche on the WR. The Henley to Paddington peak hour runs they did had a long tradition of being a main line operation up a relatively obscure branch; back in steam days a couple of Reading Halls worked over to Henley each morning fot the two through trains, and the branch was double track throughout and rated Red for main line locos.

I did once read it was the favoured area for old-school GWR directors to live on, let alone MPs, top bankers, and Writers Of Letters To The Times, as we once discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...m-nearly-sixty-years-ago.159751/#post-3301287 .
I think the class 120s that used to work the inverness aberdeen services were referred to as intercity units were they not also.
 

jimm

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big all

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the 120 where very close to the gloucester 119 indeed i think they where just the the swindon a glouc version to the same plan
 

Taunton

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Yes the Swindon and Gloucester cross country units were indeed built to the same drawings, the latter just used the Derby standard front cab end instead of the Swindon 2-screen version.

Gloucester RCW had long been a Swindon subcontractor when the Works did not have the capacity; less well known is they had built the GWR pre-war streamlined railcars under subcontract, and quite often assemblies and materials were exchanged part-built. The external paint used on the Gloucester vehicles was sent over by Swindon to ensure the right shades of chocolate and cream.
 

big all

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although i can remember in the early seventies the scottish 120 had an extra compartment next to the brakevan adapted to fish carrying duties so childish innuendos as well as the smell off fish must have haunted the first class
 

Pigeon

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They were called "Inter City" units because they came from Swindon and that was an old GWR expression, for a key express on the very route we are discussing, Paddington to Birmingham. Strangely, the first and the last builds of traditional dmus, at Swindon works, were the only ones of this designation. Essentially they were normal Mk 1 express carriages above the frame, including some side corridor vehicles, and normal dmu mechanicals below the frame. The old ones were generally associated with the Edinburgh-Glasgow line, although several were used for their first couple of years in the 1950s on Birmingham to Cardiff runs. The newer ones as I described never seemed to find the right niche on the WR.

I have some confusing memories relating to the 1720 SuO WOS-PAD in the late 70s. This was supposed to be loco+coaches, but it went through a period of being a DMU instead for a while (and was always horribly late when this happened). A very long DMU, of comparable length to the usual carriage rake (and so displaying the same characteristic of only having one or two passengers in each carriage). What's confusing is that I remember being able to walk through the entire length of the train, without being blocked part way along by cab ends - but I also distinctly remember 3+2 seating with one door per bay, which would not have been a Class 123. Maybe I'm just mashing together memories of different units as being of the same train...
 

70014IronDuke

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http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1164.htm

:)

The second paragraph of the caption to that picture, about Warships being originally designed for the Birmingham route, I have my doubts about. I notice it has been copied verbatim from the Wikipedia entry on the Warships. I can offer s string of rebuttals but which would be off-topic here, apart from there never having been a Hydraulic maintenance depot in the West Midlands.

OK. That's one. There are another two shots from another poster. I'm afraid I'm still very sceptical that Warships were ever used on this route as regular traction. The Western Region was probably the most popular set of lines with photographers, but all we can find is three pics of Warships on Paddington - Brum - [Birkenhead] services, when, as alleged in here, they were tried for months in 1962 and again in 67-68 time?

That they appeared, obviously, no doubt - the pics prove that - but I'd say the chances are equal that there was a problem at Old Oak/Paddington and all that control could offer was a Warship. Does the 81A driver sign for Warships? If yes, then take it away.

Interestingly, My one and only visit to Snow Hill was (I'm pretty sure) one early-mid afternoon in September 62 (the month of the photo you produce) - certainly never saw a Warship myself (not that I would count that as serious evidence against the argument - just anecdotal).
 

Helvellyn

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In the very late 1980s/early 1990s InterCity CrossCountry hired in an NSE Oxford loco-hauled Mark 1/2A set to operate a Saturday Only Paddington-Carlisle service routed Reading/Birmingham. It returned on a Sunday morning as the first Southbound service off Carlisle. If I recall correctly it was 47 hauled throughout.

By the early 1990s a couple of the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Birmingham services had been combined with Birmingham to Paddington ones. I would need to dig out an old timetable but if I even think one of those routed via Manchester as well!
 

RPM

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198?: Route between Old Oak Common and Northolt Junction was singled. This is mentioned as an aside since no Birmingham trains we using it at that time.

Old Oak Common to Park Royal was singled, as was Greenford to Northolt Junction. The middle section from Park Royal to Greenford remains double track to this day.
 

Chris Butler

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Old Oak Common to Park Royal was singled, as was Greenford to Northolt Junction. The middle section from Park Royal to Greenford remains double track to this day.

Thanks. Yes, indeed. Just seemed a lot of detail to add. Will change the text though.
 

Chris Butler

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You might have expected that Birmingham services from Paddington would depart along the Relief Lines on the north side out to Old Oak, but they invariably seemed to cross over, even if coming from platforms in the centre of the station, to the Main Lines on the south side, then slow down to lurch across the quite tight crossovers at Old Oak to the Reliefs, and immediately turn off. You can see the Pullman do it in the video linked above.

The route to Banbury had various internal names, Joint Line was one of them, it was also known as the Bicester Cutoff. In the division of responsibilities the GWR did the signalling, so it looked no different to a normal GW line.


Unusual in WR days - the Paddington and the Birmingham suburban units rarely got onto each other's territory. Of course, once Marylebone took over the Baanbury line it was all suburban units, as that was all they had. Anything other than the Pressed Steel suburban units was also unusual at Paddington, except for a couuple of peak hour (only) services from Henley etc, where a few of the WR's large fleet of cross country, and later inter city, units were specially provided; otherwise these units roamed all over the region, except in the London Division.

Yes, that is quite strange. My vague memory is that the Pullman would often leave from the platforms alongside the taxi road (I think that means platforms 8 and 9), presumably to allow taxi passengers to step almost straight into the train. I may be mixed up though.
 

Bevan Price

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OK. That's one. There are another two shots from another poster. I'm afraid I'm still very sceptical that Warships were ever used on this route as regular traction. The Western Region was probably the most popular set of lines with photographers, but all we can find is three pics of Warships on Paddington - Brum - [Birkenhead] services, when, as alleged in here, they were tried for months in 1962 and again in 67-68 time?

That they appeared, obviously, no doubt - the pics prove that - but I'd say the chances are equal that there was a problem at Old Oak/Paddington and all that control could offer was a Warship. Does the 81A driver sign for Warships? If yes, then take it away.

Interestingly, My one and only visit to Snow Hill was (I'm pretty sure) one early-mid afternoon in September 62 (the month of the photo you produce) - certainly never saw a Warship myself (not that I would count that as serious evidence against the argument - just anecdotal).

Lack of diesel photos pre-1968 is not totally surprising. In those days, many enthusiasts would only photograph steam locos, and return the camera to the bag if they saw a diesel approaching. I was there, and almost the same, although I did not totally ignore all diesels.

At that time, colour film was relatively expensive for those of us on modest incomes. My first job paid just under 16 pounds per week; 4 pounds for the taxman, 4 for rent. So under 8 pounds for food, travel, film and other spending. So not much left for colour slide film at (then) 1.80 for 36 exposure film. Also at that time, many of the best films (colour, or black/white) were rated at only 25-50 ASA (ISO), so were not much use for fast-moving trains except in bright sunlight. Higher rated films were available, but mostly gave very grainy photographs.

From what I remember, Warships were sometimes used on Paddington/Birmingham services for a short time, circa 1962/1963, but were not very successful, especially on heavier loads, and were replaced by Classes 52 & 47 as soon as enough became available. I found 2 different timing logs of Class 42 at Snow Hill from Autumn 1962 in the Railway Performnce Society logs database, and I assume these are unlikely to have been the only times when Warships were used. Further north at Shrewsbury, Class 42 were most likely to have been seen on the Hereford line.


(Sorry my "pound" key is refusing to type pound symbols for some reason)
 

Western Sunset

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Yes, that is quite strange. My vague memory is that the Pullman would often leave from the platforms alongside the taxi road (I think that means platforms 8 and 9), presumably to allow taxi passengers to step almost straight into the train. I may be mixed up though.

Also only the centre couple of platforms (5 and 6) were bi-directional in those days. So if the Blue Pullmans were doing a turn-round in the station, they'd use those two. If coming ECS from OOC, then any 1 to 4 could be used. Likewise, if departing ECS after arrival, then the higher numbers were available.

Padd was very much a two-sided station; departures on the low numbered platforms (fed by empty carriage lines from OOC) and arrivals at the high-numbered plats.
 
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70014IronDuke

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Lack of diesel photos pre-1968 is not totally surprising. In those days, many enthusiasts would only photograph steam locos, and return the camera to the bag if they saw a diesel approaching. I was there, and almost the same, although I did not totally ignore all diesels....

Cmmon, Bev. I fully agree that spending power was way, way, way down for most folks of the time ie most of us, compared to today - but there are plenty of B&W pics of BRW diesel stuff around from 1960-62 on the main lines and branches. Why not of Warships on the PAd - Wolverhampton LL line? I suggest because it was pretty damn unusual.

From what I remember, Warships were sometimes used on Paddington/Birmingham services for a short time, circa 1962/1963, but were not very successful, especially on heavier loads, and were replaced by Classes 52 & 47 as soon as enough became available.

Well, 52s hit the rails towards the end of 61, I think it was. I get the impression that their priorty target was the Brum workings. (Kind of surprising, I must say. I'd have thought the Plymouth services were the priority, but that's not what it looks like with hindsight.) By the end of the summer 62 timetable, I don't think there was much left diagrammed for steam on the Brum line. I think the Kings were largely out of it by then. So it was pretty rapid dieselisation - with 52s - during 1962.

I found 2 different timing logs of Class 42 at Snow Hill from Autumn 1962 in the Railway Performnce Society logs database, and I assume these are unlikely to have been the only times when Warships were used.

I would agree. But I suspect there were not many more.

Further north at Shrewsbury, Class 42 were most likely to have been seen on the Hereford line.

That is not in question - there is plenty of evidence that Warships were used on Cardiff - Crewe turns.

(Sorry my "pound" key is refusing to type pound symbols for some reason)

Noo, no forgiveness for such sins on this board Bevan. Sort out your keyboard, or face the consequences.
:)
 

50010 Monarch

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I remember that Paddington to Hull train: I caught it one day from Didcot (which had a handful of direct Birmingham InterCity trains in those days) right through to Hull. I don't remember there being a return working; I wonder what the stock did next?

The Paddington to Hull service also conveyed a portion for Leeds. The train divided at Sheffield. The return working was a Leeds/Hull to Brighton service which combined at Sheffield.
 

Taunton

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The first few D1000 were widely scattered, probably for training, and only trickled slowly out of the works. I think they started off with one at each WR diesel depot. My first run with one was, I can recall pretty accurately, D1007 on a Taunton-Bristol express in August 1962. Taunton platform porter to my father as it ran in : "Ah, yer be one o' them new diesels what's always breakin' down".

Why not of Warships on the PAd - Wolverhampton LL line? I suggest because it was pretty damn unusual.
My notes originally driven by a recollection of details of their introduction on the route in Modern Railways in 1962, along with a photo of one somewhere in the West Midlands high up on a viaduct. My mags are all at the back of the attic; someone must have the 1962 ones to hand.

The remaining Kings were all withdrawn together on 31 December 1962, along with a huge number of other WR steam locos and former GWR carriages. A big end of year clearout.

I'd say the chances are equal that there was a problem at Old Oak/Paddington and all that control could offer was a Warship. Does the 81A driver sign for Warships? If yes, then take it away.

That photo I linked to is of the 0730 Shrewsbury to Paddington, probably the Warship came on at Wolverhampton about 0815. That's before an Old Oak crew could have got down there on the first service of the day, so would be a Stafford Road or Tyseley crew; Warships would have been trained there by that time.
 

6Gman

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http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1164.htm

:)

The second paragraph of the caption to that picture, about Warships being originally designed for the Birmingham route, I have my doubts about. I notice it has been copied verbatim from the Wikipedia entry on the Warships. I can offer s string of rebuttals but which would be off-topic here, apart from there never having been a Hydraulic maintenance depot in the West Midlands.

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1164.htm

:)

The second paragraph of the caption to that picture, about Warships being originally designed for the Birmingham route, I have my doubts about. I notice it has been copied verbatim from the Wikipedia entry on the Warships. I can offer s string of rebuttals but which would be off-topic here, apart from there never having been a Hydraulic maintenance depot in the West Midlands.

And the fact they were named after ... er, warships of the Royal Navy would seem to suggest they were intended to spend more time in Plymouth than in Wolverhampton.

I do recall a railway magazine article from around 1969 (so, after the route was downgraded after completion of the WCML electrification) which reported that Warships were being reallocated to the route but I think that was short-lived.
 

Dr Hoo

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This fits with my recollections as a West Midlander in the 1960s. ‘Westerns’ and Class 47s at Snow Hill after the King’s had gone. Didn’t get to see Warships regularly until the residual Paddington services went to New Street in 1967. Notoriously unreliable.
 

Poolie

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I can distinctly remember Warships working from Marylebone on Birmingham trains in the early 70's. Diverted from Paddington due to some work giong on there
 

34087

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I used to use Reading to New St several times a year in the early/mid 80's for pay negotiation meetings of indeterminate length. The morning and late afternoon/evening return service frequency certainly improved when New St to Pad trains ran as well as the South Coast trains.

There was no particular need to rush the negotiations as there always seemed to be a big gap in the afternoon. However one summer day I turned up at New St at about 4.00pm and there was a considerable time before a Pad via Reading or South Coast train was due. However the longest DMU I had ever seen rolled in shortly after, destination Oxford. I thought it might have been 3 x 3 car but seeing mention of the eight car unit, it might have been that.

Anyway the driver had the blinds up so an interesting, front-row, trip to Oxford via Solihull ensued. At Oxford a DMU to Reading was easily the quickest option, again the blinds were up and I got the front seat. Arrived Reading to get to Blackwater on the Guildford route and sure enough the blinds were up on another DMU and the front seat was available.
 
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