jingsmonty
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During the busy summer months, most passengers will be grateful just to have a seat & space for luggage - something that doesn't happen with 170s.
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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion
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During the busy summer months, most passengers will be grateful just to have a seat & space for luggage - something that doesn't happen with 170s.
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VioletEclipse
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I agree completely, and I've been a passenger in that situation many times.
47271
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Just to be clear on my point around the use of high density coaches on the 'classic' sets.
It's a fallacy that every Scotrail service on the Highland Main Line is full and standing, the ones I use in the early morning and mid evening are generally one third full if that, even in the height of summer.
At the moment at those levels of loading the 170s provide a good level of space and comfort for those of us who need to spend up to three hours working in either direction.
The Scotrail HST refurb spec gives similar, or better levels of table provision.
There are GWR Standard Class mk3s trailers available with a similar low density layout.
There are others which have no more than two tables per coach and all I'm asking is that if at all possible these are not used in the 'classic' sets about to be introduced, since they will deliver a marked deterioration in standards for those of us who spend a lot of time every week working and travelling between the North and the Central Belt.
It's a fallacy that every Scotrail service on the Highland Main Line is full and standing, the ones I use in the early morning and mid evening are generally one third full if that, even in the height of summer.
At the moment at those levels of loading the 170s provide a good level of space and comfort for those of us who need to spend up to three hours working in either direction.
The Scotrail HST refurb spec gives similar, or better levels of table provision.
There are GWR Standard Class mk3s trailers available with a similar low density layout.
There are others which have no more than two tables per coach and all I'm asking is that if at all possible these are not used in the 'classic' sets about to be introduced, since they will deliver a marked deterioration in standards for those of us who spend a lot of time every week working and travelling between the North and the Central Belt.
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If that can be done it does make some sense
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There aren't. The low-density HST coaches have 4 tables, far fewer than a Class 170.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Not really, the airline seats still have a decent amount of legroom, as well as power points and seat back tables.
I'd take a HD HST over a 170 any day of the week!
Although I'm pretty sure the Scotrail sets are LD anyway...
jingsmonty
Member
The difference between the 'low density' & 'high density' ex GWR coaches isn't that great - 80 seats v 84 seats. 4 tables per coach instead of 2. Not ideal (personally, I prefer an airline seat anyway, but I totally get why some people would rather have a table, for work, laptops, etc). The luggage space is truly pathetic on a 170 as well (even one that isn't particularly busy).
The point is: it's only temporary & the proper Scotrail 'refurb' coaches have a more appropriate layout.
As someone who has worked as a Conductor on the HML, there is most definetly a capacity issue during the summer & whilst sone of the evening trains aren't as busy, the afternoon trains North of Perth can be very busy. The 1253 & 1447 from Inverness also tend to be pretty well loaded too & a 4 coach HST is definetly a welcome capacity increase on those trains.
The point is: it's only temporary & the proper Scotrail 'refurb' coaches have a more appropriate layout.
As someone who has worked as a Conductor on the HML, there is most definetly a capacity issue during the summer & whilst sone of the evening trains aren't as busy, the afternoon trains North of Perth can be very busy. The 1253 & 1447 from Inverness also tend to be pretty well loaded too & a 4 coach HST is definetly a welcome capacity increase on those trains.
47271
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I've checked and you're right, I could've sworn that I was on one a while ago that was four either side. A Scotrail 170 has anything between 8 and 11 tables per coach as far as I can see.
Anyway, a total of four is still better than a total of two.
Are there some that have no tables at all, that's what my reading of the GWR plan for coaches B and C suggests?
I've got quite a small laptop but I'm quite tall and hefty and I can't function properly in a GWR HST Standard Class airline seat once I've tried to get any papers or a notebook out. I can't fold the screen back properly and I can't type as quickly as normal because I can't get my elbows at the right angle. I'm just about okay if there's noone beside me and I can use both tray tables but it really isn't great. I'm not saying that it's any worse than any other airline seat, but on most other operators there's a better chance of getting a table.
Absolutely, my original point was that we wouldn't all necessarily see the introduction of 'classic' HSTs as an uplift on what we experience at the moment. I appreciate the extra capacity, which is to everyone's benefit, but if I can't sit and work comfortably for three hours in the way that I can at the moment then noone's going to convince me that I'm experiencing an uplift!
Tony Mason
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Is it just just the first class buffet coaches such as 40601(41032) being renumbered or are all coaches as they are refitted with sliding doors.
I know Cross Country HST'S have kept their original numbers
I know Cross Country HST'S have kept their original numbers
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
C and E I believe don't have any tables, or at least that appears to be the case.
The latter day BR seating layout was 10 tables, for what it's worth.
43096
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The 'low density' thing is an utter fallacy - they are really "slightly less high density". Easiest just to think of all GWR HST sets as having an appalling interior layout.
Northhighland
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Not too much of a problem on the HML as it appears that the classic HST’s are running to Aberdeen?
sprinterguy
Established Member
Yes, unlike the GWR numbering scheme, the refurbished Scotrail TSOs are retaining the same numbers.
The last batch of buffet cars converted into standard class coaches for FGW/GWR did have eight tables per coach, but there are not many of them around and the seat pitch never seemed as generous as in other GW Mk3s, presumably to get the extra tables in.
I wouldn't get too excited just yet. GWR has so far received 9 out of about 60 power-door coaches it needs for the West Country sets.
43096
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48 is the authorised number of conversions.
jingsmonty
Member
The 0453 (Edinburgh via Aberdeen), 0554 (Aberdeen), 0941 (Edinburgh) & 1253 (Edinburgh) are all scheduled to be HST departures from Inverness, as of the new timetable next month. There will also be associated Northbound workings, although I can't remember all of them off the top of my head (the 1900 Perth - Inverness is one, this is the 1742 ex Waverley).
The question was asked whether the 'classic' & 'refurb' sets (or 'set', in the case of the 'refurb'!) would be on separate diagrams. The answer was that they wouldn't be, so could be either version turning up for a particular diagram.
snookertam
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There's only one refurbished unit and at most two at the start of next month. There's no way they'll keep them on separate diagrams from the rest. Operationally it would be near enough impossible.
scotraildriver
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They will be kept on seperate diagrams as no Queen St guards are trained on the refurbished trains so they can't work on any services with a Queen St guard which is quite a few diagrams.
snookertam
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Stand corrected then! But good luck trying to keep them away from those diagrams...
Highlandspring
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Set allocations aren’t random, they’re done by the night shift TSDMs so it’s very easy to keep something on or off a specific diagram.
jingsmonty
Member
I was told by someone who would 'know', if you get my meaning, that they definetly won't be on separate diagrams...guess we'll have to wait & see
jingsmonty
Member
Are there any Queen St guards who still have valid compenencies for slam door stock as well? I know they used to do the Caledonian Sleeper, but would have thought that had lapsed by now? The guard training is definetly an issue - none have been trained in Inverness, for either versions of the HST.
That's assuming the RMT will agree the training anyway, given the situation with the toilets & lack of CETs on the Classic sets...the sh*t may be about to hit the fan (or the track....)
snookertam
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Night shift control staff may wish the sets to be on certain diagrams, but night shift shunting staff don't always comply.
scotraildriver
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The competency has lapsed but guards training today and every day this week on the slam door trains. 4 today. There is a new training path in the mornings, 09.32 Queen St to Linlithgow loop which is used for guard training.
kilonewton
Member
The mk2 stock that runs during the peak on the Fife Circle, do they have CETs etc?
jingsmonty
Member
No they don't
jingsmonty
Member
Ah, that makes sense, cheers - I'm glad that at least 1 depot seems to be organisibg training!
The agreement that was reached in 2016 with ScotRail, Transport Scotland and the RMT over toilet discharge was specifically for Scotrail leased stock. The Fife circle Mk2 stock is owned and operated by DRS, so presumably this falls outside the agreement. They could technically run different non scotrail branded Mk2 coaches if required. Whereas the HSTs are leased by ScotRail and so are subject to the agreement.
Oversprayed panel, Yeah had that one. Although the 158 I had tonight was fresh out and pretty sharp. Back on topic, I did hear of a fair bit of HST activity at Killie today, will have to find out more tomorrow
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