Shortage of trains to cause severe disruption to Penistone Line and Ormskirk-Preston

muz379 · 18 Nov 2018

One thing I have noticed is that there have been multiple instances that I know of just in the area I work of RHTT's breaking down and causing disruption but then also presumably not being able to finish their treatment circuit for the day ,I dont remember anything like this in previous years . If this is happening across all areas at a similar rate that could at least be part of the reason for increased numbers of units suffering wheel flats .

Bletchleyite said:
No, but you can remove all the trees within the railway boundary fence, which would likely help.

They can only start removing trees after nesting season ends which is late august . That does not give them long given autumn starts late september , in some locations this would be feasible , but in others you need to start looking at the structural implications of removing trees making it difficult . In many locations though and the worst that I know off in the area I work removing only trees inside the railway boundary would make little to no difference difference .

dcbwhaley said:
Surely changing a wheel doesn't take days?

TheSel said:
Couldn't they fix them on Saturdays when Northern's trains don't run anyway?

There are only so many wheel lathes available for use , so even if they worked flat out on Saturday they would still be behind if the facts above are true about this being an above expected number of units suffering from flats rendering them unserviceable .

RailUK Forums

Class 170101 · 18 Nov 2018

Is there nothing at Doncaster too wheel lathe wise? Sheffield to Neville Hill at low speed seems an awfully long way.

Surreytraveller · 18 Nov 2018

DarloRich said:
Can you track which tree the leaves come from?

Trees have DNA same as we do

ess · 18 Nov 2018

Please can someone explain how a train gets a flat wheel

1D53 · 18 Nov 2018

Class 170101 said:
Is there nothing at Doncaster too wheel lathe wise? Sheffield to Neville Hill at low speed seems an awfully long way.

Roberts Road has a lathe, has had Northern units on it all weekend.

muz379 · 18 Nov 2018

ess said:
Please can someone explain how a train gets a flat wheel

Its not so much a flat wheel as flat spots on the wheel .

If a wheel locks and stops rotating when the brakes are applied due to railhead contamination it will slide along the rail , this metal on metal contact with tonnes of train on top then results in flat spots forming at the points on the wheel that are in contact with the rail as the slide happens .

Surreytraveller · 18 Nov 2018

ess said:
Please can someone explain how a train gets a flat wheel

Someone let the iron out of the steel rim

Mag_seven · 18 Nov 2018

Darandio said:
Yet they were told to stop doing just that. Mind you, it was Jo Johnson that told them to stop but as he has now buggered off they should secretly go back to obliterating them again.

NR should have told Jo Johnson where to get off. This is a safety issue. He has no right telling NR how to manage its affairs.

DarloRich · 18 Nov 2018

ess said:
Please can someone explain how a train gets a flat wheel

it has a skid

uww11x · 18 Nov 2018

Can only do some trips to a Laithe before you need new wheelsets! In most cases a long wait as they are bought when needed by most firms.

js1000 · 18 Nov 2018

Northern's 142s have been absolutely decimated compared to previous years. There must have been 4 of them at Longsight awaiting wheel flat repairs on Thursday evening.

This person on Twitter says 42 units are out of service at the moment.

https://twitter.com/Northern_Travel/status/1064110847994281985

js1000 · 18 Nov 2018

Ken H said:
maybe Northern staff have had enough. All sorts of operating problems, and probably grumpy customers too, making workdays hard at all staff levels.. I suppose morale then starts to suffer, and recovering then becomes very hard. Will Northern be able to turn this round when they get electrics to Blackpool?

It's going to take years for Northern to recover. The next 2 years are rehabilitation period and getting a timetable that actually works and that passengers can rely on. The hard reality is that since Arriva took the franchise over in April 2016, Northern are one of only a couple of franchises whose passenger numbers have actually declined.

Mogster · 18 Nov 2018

It doesn’t surprise me passenger numbers are declining. I’d say I’ve noticed a decline in headcount since the new (and ongoing through Castlefield) timetable chaos and then the current short forming issues. It’s hardly scientific but you notice if the carriages are full and standing or not...

The quality of the stock has always been atrocious for 2018 but now that’s compounded by the fact you just can’t rely on the service. I’m lucky, boarding at Wigan gives lots of options regarding travel to Manchester, I also have flexible working arrangements. Somewhere like Westhoughton has 2 services per hour, turning up to find you regularly can’t board would lead to you making alternative arrangements sharpish I’d imagine.

dk1 · 18 Nov 2018

One of the most ridiculous rules imposed on new drivers is that they throw the train brake into 'emergency' if they feel the train is out of control. Being very inexperienced this is now consistently done in panic mode hence stopping well before the required Point & seriously damaging the wheelset. Sadly this is the climate of fear train drivers live in & are taught nowadays thus saving their career but to hell with the service for the passengers & timetable.

alangla · 18 Nov 2018

Kind of related, spotted this how-to guide to changing a wheelset on a 156
https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1064248111730749444 then click the picture of the 156

EDIT - On the second frame there’s a link to a video from last year with a 156 on the lathe

scrapy · 19 Nov 2018

Although

Eccles1983 said:
There are a handful of wheel lathes that can be used.

Problem is that every other TOC has wheel flats, and it backs up. Also it's not really changing a wheel. It's getting the profile of the wheel trimmed down to a specific level, which also means all the others on that unit need doing to the same spec.

It's not like Kwik fit, it's a job that once started takes several hours continually.

It doesn't help that due to a shortage of skilled staff the wheel lathe at Allerton is being under utilised.

jfowkes · 19 Nov 2018

Eccles1983 said:
There are a handful of wheel lathes that can be used.

Problem is that every other TOC has wheel flats, and it backs up. Also it's not really changing a wheel. It's getting the profile of the wheel trimmed down to a specific level, which also means all the others on that unit need doing to the same spec.

It's not like Kwik fit, it's a job that once started takes several hours continually.

When you say "all the others on that unit", what do you mean exactly? The whole train? One carriage? One bogie?

Just curious.

a_c_skinner · 19 Nov 2018

So we are not spending enough on RHTT, lathes, lathe staff or on a few spare units or wheelsets.
Like education and health we are allowing public services to fall to bits because we are not spending enough and the political goal is to keep things at a level that won't cost too many constituencies.

Eccles1983 · 19 Nov 2018

jfowkes said:
When you say "all the others on that unit", what do you mean exactly? The whole train? One carriage? One bogie?

Just curious.

As far as I understand it the wheels on the unit (the bits stuck together, not coupled) have to all be within a certain profile, or uneven wear will occur and damage the set.

So when they sort out a tyre, they have to check and skim the others.

Dannys · 19 Nov 2018

Disruption on the Penistone line will continue tomorrow, with pretty much all journeys terminating at Barnsley. The main area of disruption is actually at the local stations between Barnsley and Sheffield, as the service on this section has been halved.

The last Sheffield to Huddersfield train tonight has also been cancelled in full (No mention of a bus substitute?)

It was chaos this morning - The 8.29 peak arrival into Sheffield was cancelled from Barnsley. This normally is a packed 3 car 144, so much so that it recently made the cover of the local paper due to its overcrowding and frequently leaves passengers behind at Chapeltown. To make matters worse, the preceeding stopper from Leeds, was reduced to a single Class 153 unit.

Sankey Wire · 19 Nov 2018

The Atherton Line has been unbearable the last week or so. I work in Walkden and every morning I am having to wrestle off the train, it’s a small miracle that I haven’t ended up in Manchester yet.

I really feel for the guards, who are coming in for a lot of flack from fed-up passengers.

Iskra · 19 Nov 2018

Dannys said:
Disruption on the Penistone line will continue tomorrow, with pretty much all journeys terminating at Barnsley. The main area of disruption is actually at the local stations between Barnsley and Sheffield, as the service on this section has been halved.

The last Sheffield to Huddersfield train tonight has also been cancelled in full (No mention of a bus substitute?)

It was chaos this morning - The 8.29 peak arrival into Sheffield was cancelled from Barnsley. This normally is a packed 3 car 144, so much so that it recently made the cover of the local paper due to its overcrowding and frequently leaves passengers behind at Chapeltown. To make matters worse, the preceeding stopper from Leeds, was reduced to a single Class 153 unit.

I accidentally caught that train between Meadowhall and Sheffield the other day, I couldn't believe just how packed it was. Northern are clearly struggling, but it's getting worse not better.

How long before the announcement that 14X units get kept on even longer as emergency capacity...

Mathew S · 19 Nov 2018

Sankey Wire said:
I really feel for the guards, who are coming in for a lot of flack from fed-up passengers.

Indeed. I'm lucky travelling the full Manchester - Wigan, I always get a seat and have no on/off issues. But I sympathize massively with anyone who uses the intermediate stations.
The guards and other staff are, though, doing an amazing job dealing with (understandably) increasingly grumpy passengers every day. Don't envy them at all.

Llanigraham · 19 Nov 2018

We've been suffering similarly for a while!
https://tfwrail.wales/homepage

CaptainHaddock · 19 Nov 2018

Dannys said:
Disruption on the Penistone line will continue tomorrow, with pretty much all journeys terminating at Barnsley. The main area of disruption is actually at the local stations between Barnsley and Sheffield, as the service on this section has been halved.

The last Sheffield to Huddersfield train tonight has also been cancelled in full (No mention of a bus substitute?)

It was chaos this morning - The 8.29 peak arrival into Sheffield was cancelled from Barnsley. This normally is a packed 3 car 144, so much so that it recently made the cover of the local paper due to its overcrowding and frequently leaves passengers behind at Chapeltown. To make matters worse, the preceeding stopper from Leeds, was reduced to a single Class 153 unit.

Yes, my partner was commuting into Sheffield from Elsecar this morning and had the same problem. What's particularly galling is that, by only bothering to run trains between Huddersfield and Barnsley, Northern have effectively given up on commuters on local services between Barnsley and Sheffield and, given Northern's dismal record this year, I can imagine what starts off as an emergency timetable effectively becomes the WTT once it's been in place a week or two.

What with this plus Northern's refusal to do anything about the ongoing RMT Saturday strikes and the May 2018 new timetable fiasco, you have to wonder just what they have to do to be stripped of their franchise.

Gems · 19 Nov 2018

Not like Northern to worry about wheel flats. You have to hear them thumping down the line from a mile away before they are declared a failure.

Taunton · 19 Nov 2018

Nothing new. E L Ahrons, a pioneer of railway book writing over 100 years ago, with a technically informed style with witty Victorian asides mixed in, suspected that Great Northern suburban third class carriages were fitted with octagonal wheels.

matacaster · 20 Nov 2018

Wheel flats are a regular problem in leaf fall season. How about putting device, such as a smaller version of a third rail pickup shoe, in front of the leading wheel of every train which is kept out of rail contact normally, but deployed under spring pressure in the event of a brake application? One at each each end for each track of a multiple unit should suffice.

Discuss!

Jonny · 20 Nov 2018

CaptainHaddock said:
Yes, my partner was commuting into Sheffield from Elsecar this morning and had the same problem. What's particularly galling is that, by only bothering to run trains between Huddersfield and Barnsley, Northern have effectively given up on commuters on local services between Barnsley and Sheffield and, given Northern's dismal record this year, I can imagine what starts off as an emergency timetable effectively becomes the WTT once it's been in place a week or two.

What with this plus Northern's refusal to do anything about the ongoing RMT Saturday strikes and the May 2018 new timetable fiasco, you have to wonder just what they have to do to be stripped of their franchise.

Given the involvement of the DfT in the new timetable and Network Rail in other aspects of the fiasco, taking the franchise away would be very hard indeed.

Eccles1983 · 20 Nov 2018

matacaster said:
Wheel flats are a regular problem in leaf fall season. How about putting device, such as a smaller version of a third rail pickup shoe, in front of the leading wheel of every train which is kept out of rail contact normally, but deployed under spring pressure in the event of a brake application? One at each each end for each track of a multiple unit should suffice.

Discuss!

And when it hits jointed rail?

Smash whallop their goes an air Res, and possibly a wheel set.

Have you seen the state of the track? You'd end up with lots of broken trains, never mind wheel flats

Shortage of trains to cause severe disruption to Penistone Line and Ormskirk-Preston

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