Virgin Trains USA

edwin_m · 17 Nov 2018

https://eu.tcpalm.com/story/news/lo...ightline-become-virgin-trains-usa/2023779002/

Brightline will be renamed Virgin Trains USA as part of a new partnership with Richard Branson’s Virgin Group, the railroad announced Friday morning.

Virgin — parent company of Virgin Atlantic airlines and more than 60 media, entertainment and hospitality brands — will become a minority investor in the South Florida passenger railroad, according to Brightline.

But the powerful new affiliation doesn’t come without a cost.

Brightline has been building its brand since 2015, and was on the cusp of bringing its colorful logo across the country with a planned expansion into California and Las Vegas. The railroad will be giving up three years of intense branding efforts in exchange for Virgin's internationally-known name.

The Virgin partnership also carries financial benefits, and could bring a needed infusion of cash to the $4 billion railroad, which began service among Fort Lauderdale, Miami and West Palm Beach earlier this year and plans to begin full Miami-to-Orlando service by 2021.

Similar sort of arrangement to what has happened with Stagecoach?

RailUK Forums

tasky · 17 Nov 2018

How Virgin Trains keep convincing people that their brand is worth paying to use I will never understand

LOL The Irony · 17 Nov 2018

edwin_m said:
https://eu.tcpalm.com/story/news/lo...ightline-become-virgin-trains-usa/2023779002/
Similar sort of arrangement to what has happened with Stagecoach?

I wonder how the Yanks will take to flowing silk?

squizzler · 18 Nov 2018

Good news I think.

Given that the uptake of rail travel in the US is years - nay, decades - behind that of Western Europe and East Asia, I think the association of a well known brand such as Virgin will lend credibility to the rail system and provide reassurance to the prospective customers.

LNW-GW Joint · 18 Nov 2018

One of Richard Branson's statements is that "Tens of millions of Americans travel on railways every day".
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...sa-formed-by-virgin-group-and-brightline.html

We have had a lot of fun and success creating innovative transport businesses that shake up markets and establish loyal followings’, said Virgin founder Sir Richard Branson. ‘We transformed domestic air travel with Virgin America. Tens of millions of Americans travel on the railways every day, and we have tried for over a decade to find an opportunity to provide them with that same excellent service experience. Brightline is at the forefront of innovation in this market, and the ideal partner for Virgin to work with to alter perceptions and traveling habits across the United States

I find that very hard to believe.
Whatever the number is, it's dominated by metro-type commuting into major cities, not longer-distance business and leisure travel.
As ever with Virgin, it's a branding revenue investment with low overall capital risk.

Brightline has done well to start an inter-urban service in south Florida (on 70 miles of largely single track), but it's a long way short of the sort of service that Virgin aspires to.
They also face large costs and obstacles in reaching Orlando (another 150 miles) and Tampa (80 miles further still) in a car/plane-obsessed state.
They currently run an hourly service each way taking 74 minutes, with one stop at Fort Lauderdale, for a fare of $15 each way, at a max line speed of 79mph.

Royston Vasey · 18 Nov 2018

[QUOTE="LNW-GW Joint, post: 3736818, member: 9266”]
As ever with Virgin, it's a branding revenue investment with low overall capital risk.[/QUOTE]
With Virgin Trains in the UK this is probably true but the risk Virgin took in setting up Virgin America was much larger than this, they acquired a mostly brand new fleet of A320 family aircraft albeit leased and set up operations at several major airports after years of litigation with Continental and the regulators. They came into the market with a genuinely new and innovative high quality three class (well, two and a half class) product based on point to point revenues between major cities. It never quite made money but it changed the US airline industry in that they left both the legacy carriers and LCCs way behind in onboard quality and service and they’re only just catching up.

Virgin America was a brilliant airline which took money, risk and guts to establish and the only reason it wasn’t majority owned by Virgin Group was because of airline ownership legislation in the USA, which disqualifies foreign owned airlines operating exclusively in US airspace, so they had to restructure it. There may be such a law for private railroads, I’m not sure.

LOL The Irony · 18 Nov 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
One of Richard Branson's statements is that "Tens of millions of Americans travel on railways every day"

The NEC is pretty busy.

Bletchleyite · 18 Nov 2018

FWIW, most of them probably travel on things like the MetroNorth and other New York commuter railroads that are not the Subway. But there's no issue with including that in the stats, as taking it out would be about as silly as excluding London commuters from any UK passenger count. Not being run by Amtrak doesn't make it not a railroad.

cactustwirly · 18 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
FWIW, most of them probably travel on things like the MetroNorth and other New York commuter railroads that are not the Subway. But there's no issue with including that in the stats, as taking it out would be about as silly as excluding London commuters from any UK passenger count. Not being run by Amtrak doesn't make it not a railroad.

The others being NJ Transit & Long Island Railroad

edwin_m · 18 Nov 2018

cactustwirly said:
The others being NJ Transit & Long Island Railroad

According to Wikipedia weekday ridership on the three only comes to about 1m, and they are the top three commuter roads in the USA. New York Subway has 5.7 m. According to a quick search Amtrak has only 2.5 million a year. Even including subways and light rail and adding in the longer tail of smaller agencies "tens of millions every day" sounds somewhat heroic.

tasky · 18 Nov 2018

Sounds like you can just about scrape "ten of million"

Groningen · 19 Nov 2018

Not so sure whether Americans are happy to give control to foreigners. They want to be in charge!

Bletchleyite · 19 Nov 2018

Groningen said:
Not so sure whether Americans are happy to give control to foreigners. They want to be in charge!

They will be. This is a brand agreement rather like VTEC, which was to all intents and purposes a Stagecoach run franchise more like EMT in structure than West Coast.

mmh · 19 Nov 2018

Groningen said:
Not so sure whether Americans are happy to give control to foreigners. They want to be in charge!

Let's leave any unfounded suggestions of xenophobia to the EU thread in the general section of the forum and keep this thread on-topic?

Yes, the USA doesn't have much of a national rail network (hardly surprisingly), but it's a myth that nobody uses rail - where it exists, people do and local services have been successful where they've been introduced (which is often difficult as they might be peak-time only service over freight lines)

Royston Vasey · 19 Nov 2018

mmh said:
Let's leave any unfounded suggestions of xenophobia to the EU thread in the general section of the forum and keep this thread on-topic?

I’d argue it’s extremely relevant to the topic and it’s not xenophobia. US policy tends towards protectionism and control of foreign investment and withdrawal of profit from the US by foreign companies.

I have searched and cannot find a reference to limitation of foreign ownership specifically in US railroads (and since passenger rail is almost completely federal/state/public owned there’s probably been no need for a law, I’m not sure about freight). I know Canada has a 25% foreign ownership limit on both airlines and railroads and treats them similarly.

The US certainly requires its airlines to be a minimum of 75% US-owned; US policymakers and to an extent voters are indeed extremely protective and wary of foreign ownership. @Groningen is absolutely right. You may think that’s an accusation of xenophobia, it’s a pretty well-founded one if it is.

43096 · 19 Nov 2018

Royston Vasey said:
I have searched and cannot find a reference to limitation of foreign ownership specifically in US railroads (and since passenger rail is almost completely federal/state/public owned there’s probably been no need for a law, I’m not sure about freight). I know Canada has a 25% foreign ownership limit on both airlines and railroads and treats them similarly..

Both Canadian National and Canadian Pacific have bought US railroads in the past, which suggests there is no limitation, at least on freight operators.

LeeLivery · 19 Nov 2018

Interesting as the Virgin brand and Branson's reputation is probably at it's worst period in history in the UK.

squizzler said:
Good news I think.

Given that the uptake of rail travel in the US is years - nay, decades - behind that of Western Europe and East Asia, I think the association of a well known brand such as Virgin will lend credibility to the rail system and provide reassurance to the prospective customers.

Brightline already has 3x more passengers than they expected. They had a chance to build a homegrown brand that works, now they've just become another Virgin product. The only change I would've made would be to stop making it feel so corporate. The website feels more like Hargreaves Lansdown than a railway.

Royston Vasey said:
I’d argue it’s extremely relevant to the topic and it’s not xenophobia. US policy tends towards protectionism and control of foreign investment and withdrawal of profit from the US by foreign companies.

I have searched and cannot find a reference to limitation of foreign ownership specifically in US railroads (and since passenger rail is almost completely federal/state/public owned there’s probably been no need for a law, I’m not sure about freight). I know Canada has a 25% foreign ownership limit on both airlines and railroads and treats them similarly.

The US certainly requires its airlines to be a minimum of 75% US-owned; US policymakers and to an extent voters are indeed extremely protective and wary of foreign ownership. @Groningen is absolutely right. You may think that’s an accusation of xenophobia, it’s a pretty well-founded one if it is.

America is far more protectionist when it comes to industry than it makes out; the Buy American laws for example but, I doubt they'd have a problem with Virgin.

Bletchleyite · 19 Nov 2018

LeeLivery said:
Interesting as the Virgin brand and Branson's reputation is probably at it's worst period in history in the UK.

Is it? The anti-Virgin sentiment in here might say that, but it's not how it appears to me.

VTEC was a disaster, but that's in the background of (a) everything on the ECML for the last 15 years being a disaster whoever did it other than DOR, and (b) VTWC generally running very well (give or take poorly trained Euston barrier staff) and being quite popular, which is what I guess they're trying to build on. Don't forget VTWC is popular enough that there were many campaigns to keep it compared with giving the franchise to First. The airline is also well regarded (we may debate if that is justified, but it is the case).

LeeLivery · 19 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Is it? The anti-Virgin sentiment in here might say that, but it's not how it appears to me.

VTEC was a disaster, but that's in the background of (a) everything on the ECML for the last 15 years being a disaster whoever did it other than DOR, and (b) VTWC generally running very well (give or take poorly trained Euston barrier staff) and being quite popular, which is what I guess they're trying to build on. Don't forget VTWC is popular enough that there were many campaigns to keep it compared with giving the franchise to First. The airline is also well regarded (we may debate if that is justified, but it is the case).

I'd say it is. Virgin West Coast may well be popular, not doubting that, but their reputation has taken a hit. It's hard to argue it has been in a worse state, not just on railway. That doesn't mean their reputation is in the gutter, far from it, but remember many people are quite angry at the NHS contracts and Virgin taking the NHS to court. People have also been questioning Virgin Care and Branson's tax affairs. As for their airline, I speak to many people daily who fly with them and like them, but also with people who avoid them because of their very high fares. It's hit and miss, but they certainly aren't as popular as they were 3 years back.

squizzler · 19 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Is it? The anti-Virgin sentiment in here might say that, but it's not how it appears to me.

VTEC was a disaster, but that's in the background of (a) everything on the ECML for the last 15 years being a disaster whoever did it other than DOR, and (b) VTWC generally running very well (give or take poorly trained Euston barrier staff) and being quite popular, which is what I guess they're trying to build on. Don't forget VTWC is popular enough that there were many campaigns to keep it compared with giving the franchise to First. The airline is also well regarded (we may debate if that is justified, but it is the case).

I'd agree, and I feel a certain left-wing contingent of the UK rail scene have always associated Virgin's undeniably successful (well recognised by consumers) brand with their perception of the privatised railway of style over substance. The laughing stopped when the Pendolinos and Voyagers started to come on stream, and whilst VTEC was a setback to be sure, I think the perception of VT with the public remains better than when it was obviously tired BR hand-downs on WCML and XC (they knew to quicklyrefurbish the Mk4's on VTEC when that time came).

ainsworth74 · 19 Nov 2018

squizzler said:
(they knew to quicklyrefurbish the Mk4's on VTEC when that time came)

I'm not sure I'd describe it as quick. They changed the livery quick but the refurbishment took quite a while. Indeed they took trains out of service for re-liverying and then took them out again for refurbishment.

Fearless · 19 Nov 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
One of Richard Branson's statements is that "Tens of millions of Americans travel on railways every day".
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...sa-formed-by-virgin-group-and-brightline.html

I find that very hard to believe.
Whatever the number is, it's dominated by metro-type commuting into major cities, not longer-distance business and leisure travel.
As ever with Virgin, it's a branding revenue investment with low overall capital risk.

Brightline has done well to start an inter-urban service in south Florida (on 70 miles of largely single track), but it's a long way short of the sort of service that Virgin aspires to.
They also face large costs and obstacles in reaching Orlando (another 150 miles) and Tampa (80 miles further still) in a car/plane-obsessed state.
They currently run an hourly service each way taking 74 minutes, with one stop at Fort Lauderdale, for a fare of $15 each way, at a max line speed of 79mph.

It's doutbless going to be hard work but it's an initiative worth applauding. You only have to read the bulletins on the Rail Passengers' Association (previously NARP, the National Association of Railroad Passengers) website to see how hard Amtrak has to fight to avoid being shut down.

achmelvic · 19 Nov 2018

Does seem a shame even if for no other reason than they've spent time and money building a brand which based on photos online is pretty much all over the trains and stations. The interiors of the trains look quite pleasant as they are: https://gobrightline.com/trains
I assume it will all turn red at some point...

43096 · 19 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Is it? The anti-Virgin sentiment in here might say that, but it's not how it appears to me.

VTEC was a disaster, but that's in the background of (a) everything on the ECML for the last 15 years being a disaster whoever did it other than DOR

Disaster for who, though? Probably for Virgin, Stagecoach and DfT, but I wouldn't subscribe to that theory for the average passenger. Performance may not have picked up in terms of punctuality, but the trains did get a refurbishment - so in that regard not a disaster. I also don't subscribe to the theory for DOR - they were not exactly stand out performers and there was significant under-investment during its life time as it was only ever intended as a short-term expedient.

DavidGrain · 19 Nov 2018

Will Brightline be halving the length of their trains and claiming to be running twice as many trains?

Bletchleyite · 19 Nov 2018

DavidGrain said:
Will Brightline be halving the length of their trains and claiming to be running twice as many trains?

I think the stupidity of early-day VTXC is a long way behind us (though sadly XC passengers still suffer from it).

dutchflyer · 22 Nov 2018

Groningen said:
Not so sure whether Americans are happy to give control to foreigners. They want to be in charge!

Since many years another famous such thing, the GREYhound bus, is in fact owned/organised by FIRSTbus, from the UK. Another such venture, named MEGAbus, is also quite successfull in the US-and competing with said Greyhound. FLIX has also just started running buses there. I guess that the average JoeSixpack considers trains-things he has hardly any idea about, thinks of this route the same.
Virgin is also well established in the airlie business and associates with some US-airline.

baz962 · 22 Nov 2018

dutchflyer said:
Since many years another famous such thing, the GREYhound bus, is in fact owned/organised by FIRSTbus, from the UK. Another such venture, named MEGAbus, is also quite successfull in the US-and competing with said Greyhound. FLIX has also just started running buses there. I guess that the average JoeSixpack considers trains-things he has hardly any idea about, thinks of this route the same.
Virgin is also well established in the airlie business and associates with some US-airline.

First also run the yellow school buses in the states too.

Doctor Fegg · 22 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I think the stupidity of early-day VTXC is a long way behind us (though sadly XC passengers still suffer from it).

Do you think Virgin Trains US might want some Voyagers...?

DenmarkRail · 27 Nov 2018

dutchflyer said:
Virgin is also well established in the airlie business and associates with some US-airline.

Is the Virgin brand well established in America though? They've only really taken Virgin airlines to the US, and in those forms they have had limited success when at it alone. They have all had to have some sort of involvement from a larger group to help then along... E.G

-Virgin Atlantic / Australia -> Both are Delta partners, and I'd say most US based bookings come from Delta.com. Do people know the Virgin brand? Well they probably see the 'In conjunction with Virgin Atlantic' on their boarding pass, and think nothing more. The products offered by Australia and Atlantic are so similar to Delta, and soon for Atlantic, Air France/KLM, that they won't notice huge differences other than different uniforms. Once the AF/KLM deal goes through, I bet you'll find that theres more and more AF/KL/DL branding around, because more and more people will be using AF/KL/DL to book their tickets, over VS, because VS isn't a recognised brand in air travel.

-Virgin America -> Needed Alaska to rescue it. In reality, it never made a profit. Yes, it made a statement, and did push for change in the US market, although in reality, did it really influence customer choice? Did customers really see Virgin, and choose them over Delta, or Southwest? Doubtfull. I guess Virgin America was probably the best guess they had at making US customers know Virgin, but it wasn't around for long enough to really get out there. If they gave it another 10-20 years on its own, I do think it would have been expanding to a 100+ fleet.

So back to railway, will the Virgin brand really influence the customer choice? Well customers may have heard about Virgin, but I can't see it being a swing factor... It is a marketing box, that could cut costs in many ways, given the established logos, fonts, and the little things, but Brightline already had that, so it seems almost like a weird pointless exercise to fill the gap left from Virgin America.

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