WatcherZero
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Nah, they only announced 6 weeks ahead, upto Dec 15th.
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Arriva Rail North DOO
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Nah, they only announced 6 weeks ahead, upto Dec 15th.
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RailUK Forums
And cutting staff members - drivers as well as guards.
They announced 2 more strikes only an hour after announcing strikes up until 15 Dec.
Nah, they announced them until the 29th.
While we're not at the busiest shopping weekends yet the last 2 or 3 Saturdays before Christmas my local line can end up getting quite full 4 car 150s. The longest formation they can run on an all-stops service is 4 car and the Sunday service is 2 hourly - starts later than on Saturdays and ends earlier, so there is no way Northern can still get as many passengers as usual at weekends with the strike action. If all the Saturday passengers turned off on Sundays there would be hundreds left on platforms unable to board.
I've also observed the late trains on Friday are at their usual level of patronage, rather than the higher level usually achieved on Saturday nights so people don't look to be going out on Friday nights instead of Saturday nights.
The point about people drinking local works both ways. There's a number of small villages with traditional pubs near a station, the railway brings in a lot of patronage for those pubs and often those villages don't have any alternative public transport so if the trains don't run on Saturdays the existence of traditional pubs in some villages is under threat. It's also worth noting the Northern franchise consultation looked at service reductions at small village stations so that end to end journey times were faster, meaning the same units could run more services per day - that idea was dropped but if patronage at village stations drops then maybe it'll be revisited?
Blackpool Council magically funded the extension to Blackpool North. Hardly a pipe dream!
Eccles1983
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Partly funded.
Now try getting that kind of funding to alter a working existing Trainline.
I would be very surprised.
LOL The Irony
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I wouldn't call it magic, more backhanders but explaining any further will be very off topic.
Were there not strikes before First's involvement? I recall it was, to borrow a turn of phrase from my mate Mick, a basket-case under the original management.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There is I suppose a possibility it was before First were on the scene.
That I have no doubt as no one will back down. It will carry on till DOO gets implemented and the strikes become null and void.
Killingworth
Established Member
Surely the lack of talks means the employer has two options.
1. Declare that they will drop any changes to guard/conductor/obs roles during the terms of the franchise and take whatever penalty the DfT may impose. Unlikely?
2. Advise all staff of the changes they will implement from, say, 1st April and get agreement from ASLEF to those changes. When RMT calls an all out strike the detailed terms being imposed had better be good if public opinion is to back Northern!
Carrying on the way we are is not helping either Northern or RMT members, and is certainly not helping the public who pay the fares. I doubt it's pleasing the DfT any more. The longer it goes on the greater need there'll be for more subsidies, in one form or another.
1. Declare that they will drop any changes to guard/conductor/obs roles during the terms of the franchise and take whatever penalty the DfT may impose. Unlikely?
2. Advise all staff of the changes they will implement from, say, 1st April and get agreement from ASLEF to those changes. When RMT calls an all out strike the detailed terms being imposed had better be good if public opinion is to back Northern!
Carrying on the way we are is not helping either Northern or RMT members, and is certainly not helping the public who pay the fares. I doubt it's pleasing the DfT any more. The longer it goes on the greater need there'll be for more subsidies, in one form or another.
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a_c_skinner
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The way forward is for both sides to meet without pre-conditions having agreed to engage in a meaningful exploration of the other's position rather than simply state their own and discontinue talking. As union members are paying RMT a good deal of money and the public purse Northern similarly it seems not too much to ask. Being willing to talk but with conditions is a 1970s IR position, though this of course suits the situation perfectly.
I don't think escalation by either side a good plan.
I don't think escalation by either side a good plan.
Good couple of years then.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Potentially more than that unless they manage to either get funding for a fleet replacement or convert Class 15x to DOO[1]. Though that said, there are still guard operated routes on Southern but no strikes (despite many of the remaining guards looking downright miserable all the time).
[1] I suppose they *could* fit classic DOO mirrors or platform cameras, but that would *cost*. But if it moves onto an ideological thing rather than pure cost saving...
Cost is the word. There is no savings with this to be had, certainly not in this franchise. Does anyone seriously believe ASLEF would take on DCO without their members being handed a great wedge each week? Many of the older end will just refuse anyway.
I'm sure it all looked so simple on paper when the DFT were dreaming it up. Then again, as strike 36 of 42 looms into view, Northern thought it would be over after week 24. Out by a third so far and climbing.
Robertj21a
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If we get a strike every week throughout next year that will make nearly 100 . That must put it in the top group of longest-running strikes.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't know about ASLEF, but I suspect there are elements in the DfT who would like to break the RMT. To be honest, I'm on their side in that specific regard; hopefully it would be replaced with a more reasonable Union - such as ASLEF taking on the guards as members, for instance, or maybe even a wholly new Union.
(Edit: I'm not saying ASLEF or any new union would accept DOO, I suspect they would not, but they might at least act vaguely reasonably about negotiations etc and stop the Communist-style rhetoric that just makes them look stupid)
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It is a very real possibility that must make the stand in guards shudder.
Why. Is it not ASLEF who hold the sway on power. What ASLEF demands ASLEF gets. No wonder they don't strike, they don't have to. Peter Wilkinson aimed his ill thought out crass remarks at ASLEF mainly. He thought the RMT would be easy pickings. Wrong.
ASLEF say's jump. Northern management asks "How high" what makes me laugh is how the management parcels it all up as a great agreement. Since when was blackmail an agreement? The ASLEF overtime working agreement was a good laugh. "Have a £1,000 boys if you agree to work over at time and half when everyone else gets time and a fifth. But you still don't have to work over if you don't want"
No wonder they are having to go running back to the DFT with their tails between their legs waving the begging bowl. Those BMW's in the station car parks owned by drivers that Peter Wilkinson was on about just had a higher spec added.
CaptainHaddock
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Much as I'd like to wade through 240 pages on this thread, did anything come of the possibility of ACAS arbitration bringing the two sides together, as mentioned in this article from September?
https://www.lep.co.uk/news/acas-to-step-in-over-northern-rail-dispute-1-9348802
ACAS have no power. I know this through representation of the tribunal system.
I thought that platform mounted equipment was no longer allowed and that it had to be on train CCTV for any new DOO(P) schemes ?
It would be utterly ludicrous if it is one of the longest running strikes given there's set to be no redundancies, that there's no concrete evidence that DCO is an unsafe working practice and that ASLEF will be discussing any changes to the driver role with Northern, even if the RMT did absolutely nothing.
LOL The Irony
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A strike every week would cause every passenger to question the role of the 2nd staff member.
ACAS are an impartial body who try to help resolve the dispute. The Merseyrail dispute ended during ACAS talks because the RMT at Merseyrail were willing to accept door and dispatch duties transferring to the driver and Merseyrail were willing to consider a second person on every service, despite the plan for it being a half baked idea. It seems the RMT at Northern won't even consider the kind of arrangement they've accepted with Anglia, so ACAS mediated talks have got no where so far. Reportedly we are also now in the situation where DfT have relaxed one of the clauses in the franchise agreement regarding DCO and Northern have said they'll meet with the RMT to discuss if they suspend the strike action until the outcome of the talks is known, with the RMT rejecting that calling it a stalling technique.
That's happening already. Surveys have been taken at stations and online to get the views of passengers and each time there's a strike the number of passengers who support services running only if they have a second member of staff on board decreases - it's now around 5%, when it was 25% a few weeks ago. Although, that said the majority of passengers would still prefer a visible staff presence, they just don't support the RMT's view that services should only be allowed to run with a second member of service without exceptions.
njamescouk
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the only thing most passengers are bothered is having a functional service to get them to work. northern appear to be incapable of achieving this, guards or no guards.
LOL The Irony
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Well the rmt aren't exactly helping in that matter.
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