Travelling via Zone 1: do you need to tap out and back in at the place you change trains?

antharro · 19 Nov 2018

Posting on behalf of a friend so trying to keep this as unspecific as possible.

Friend works in East Croydon (zone 5) and usually takes a combination of tram and train to reach their home in zone 6. They have figured out that if the tram/train change doesn't always line up and they end up waiting for a while for the train. The timing works better sometimes if they go to a zone 1 station where they can get a fast train out to their ultimate destination without having to touch out and back in again - they can change train without going through the barriers. So they touch in at East Croydon, then out at their zone 6 destination and the Oyster system doesn't know they've gone via zone one. They have a 4-6 travelcard.

I've advised that this is a very, very bad idea, and if revenue caught them they would be in trouble with at least a penalty fare (at the company's discretion) but said friend can't see what they're doing wrong.

Could someone please advise the actual offence being committed here, and the potential consequences? Thanks.

Edited to add clarification.

- Person holds a Z4 - Z6 travelcard.
- Person takes train from East Croydon (Z5) to Z1 station.
- At Z1 station, person changes train and DOES NOT TOUCH OUT - they can change platforms WITHOUT going through ticket barriers.
- Person then takes train from Z1 to Z6 station.
- Person touches out at Z6 station.
- Person is NOT charged as the Oyster system does not know they travelled via Z1.

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PermitToTravel · 19 Nov 2018

That's fine as long as they're sure to touch in and out every time.

PermitToTravel · 19 Nov 2018

They should make sure they have enough PAYG credit to exit in z1, in case something goes wrong and they need to (or in case the fare tables are updated one day and they have to start paying to make this journey)

antharro · 19 Nov 2018

@PermitToTravel Are you saying it's ok for them to make a Z5 to Z1, then Z1 to Z6 while only paying for a Z5 - Z6 journey?

gray1404 · 19 Nov 2018

I remember once I made a journey from Zone 1 to Zone 6 but upon nearing my destination within Zone 6 my friend had to cancel. I got off at the next station and continued back to Zone 1. I touched out in Zone 1 (plus made then a single Zone 1 to Zone 1) journey on the Underground all within the time allowed for a Zone 1 journey and I was only charged for such. I asked at the time on here what would have happened if I'd been stopped by Revenue when heading back towards Zone 1 from the outer zones, and I was told that nothing much would have happened because my Oyster card would have been showing as touched in and I would not have exceeded the maximum time allowed. I was highly surprised by this at the time I have to admit.

PermitToTravel · 19 Nov 2018

I'm sure we've had threads on this in the past. You can make a journey outside the zones covered by your travelcard if you touch in and out (to pay the fare for the section not covered), and there are some journeys where doing so will not lead to you being charged because the system cannot detect this. That's just the way it is.

John @ home · 19 Nov 2018

antharro said:
As they have a Z4 to Z6 travelcard, if they got caught in the act - for example, on the train from Z1 to Z6, having not touched in in Z1, what would the offence be?

If the Zone 4-6 Travelcard is held on Oyster, and they hold a sufficient pay-as-you-go balance on the Oyster card to cover the price of a journey to or via Zone 1, then there would normally be no charge and generally no offence would have been committed because they would hold a valid ticket or sufficient pay-as-you-go credit to pass any ticket inspection during the journey.

antharro · 19 Nov 2018

@John @ home - Yes, but the PAYG balance would only be used if said friend touched out and back in at the Z1 station so the Oyster system would know what to charge. Otherwise it has no way of knowing what route they have taken and would just assume the journey was from Z5 to Z6 directly, which would be covered by the travelcard.

John @ home · 19 Nov 2018

antharro said:
@John @ homethe PAYG balance would only be used if said friend touched out and back in at the Z1 station so the Oyster system would know what to charge. Otherwise it has no way of knowing what route they have taken and would just assume the journey was from Z5 to Z6 directly, which would be covered by the travelcard.

Agreed. There would normally be no additional charge.

The use of the words normally and generally in my posts is to allow for the possibility that a pattern of behaviour may draw an individual to the attention of revenue protection inspectors. But travelling from Z5 to Z6 via Z1 without any need to touch in or out within Zones 1-3 is unlikely, by itself, to stand out as suspicious behaviour. If there is a need for an investigation, however, this pattern of use is likely to be regarded as an aggravating factor.

A Challenge · 19 Nov 2018

If they have sufficient PAYG credit to make the journey, there is nothing to stop you travelling into Zone 1 on an oyster card, and you can't be off-route as you are within the oyster zones, and so assuming you do all the touches as needed (in and out, none in Zone 1 needed) you should be alright. I see nothing that is wrong here. It may seem dodgy, but you are paying what oyster charges you for the journey. How much more would it cost to use PAYG every day (no travelcard)?

antharro · 19 Nov 2018

Thanks very much everyone for your replies to this. The situation is a lot clearer now and I will have a chat with said friend.

MikeWh · 20 Nov 2018

There has been an awful lot of incorrect information in this thread (now deleted). The relevant document is the Oyster conditions of use on National Rail services. The important condition is 3.19:

If you have a valid Travelcard on your Oyster card which only covers the start or end of your journey, or only an intermediate section of it, you can use pay as you go to pay for that part (or those parts) of your journey not covered by your Travelcard, provided that your journey starts, finishes and takes place entirely within the London National Rail Pay As You Go Area. To ensure that you are charged the appropriate pay as you go fare and that the daily cap will, if appropriate, be applied, you must touch in at the start and touch out at the end of your journey when using pay as you go.

If the Oyster system decides that the correct fare for your journey is covered by your travelcard then there is nothing more to pay. As correctly stated up thread, you cannot be off-route when using an Oyster card within the Oyster area. It may not seem right to people not used to the Oyster system, but it really is ok. It is one of the benefits of using a smartcard system to charge for actual journeys made.

ForTheLoveOf · 20 Nov 2018

MikeWh said:
There has been an awful lot of incorrect information in this thread (now deleted). The relevant document is the Oyster conditions of use on National Rail services. The important condition is 3.19:

If the Oyster system decides that the correct fare for your journey is covered by your travelcard then there is nothing more to pay. As correctly stated up thread, you cannot be off-route when using an Oyster card within the Oyster area. It may not seem right to people not used to the Oyster system, but it really is ok. It is one of the benefits of using a smartcard system to charge for actual journeys made.

But how is the fare for travelling via Zone 1 paid if you only hold a Zones 4-6 Travelcard. I am very much of the view that exploiting this "anomaly" could be seen as fare evasion.

yorkie · 20 Nov 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
But how is the fare for travelling via Zone 1 paid if you only hold a Zones 4-6 Travelcard. I am very much of the view that exploiting this "anomaly" could be seen as fare evasion.

If you travel in accordance with the conditions, and you tap in and out, and have sufficient PAYG balance, you are doing nothing wrong.

Eg. Farringdon to Wimbledon; the fare via Wimbledon Park isn't charged if you go via Wimbledon Park. This means the customer isn't paying the fare they might otherwise expect. But the customer is doing nothing wrong. They are willing to pay any fare charged and have acted correctly.

There are loads of journeys where the actual charge won't be as high as if the system knew the way you actually went. You cannot be convicted of adhering to the conditions if the system undercharges you through no wrongdoing of your own.

It's just the way it is!

There really is nothing else to be said on this thread. The correct answer was given immediately by Permittotravel.

akm · 20 Nov 2018

Generally the fares will be set such that if the only taps are entry and exit, the fare charged will be the highest one reasonably chargeable (ie the including-Z1 fare), and to obtain any lower fare taps would be needed at one or more intermediate points (pink validators or actual interchanges).

For example, from one end of the District line to the other, Ealing Broadway to Upminster, is charged at £5.10 / £3.10, on the assumption that Z1 is being used. To get the available lower fare of £2.80 / £1.50, you have to demonstrate that you've taken a Z1-avoiding route, by tapping at Stratford and /or Gospel Oak on your way.

If TfL (or whoever owns the flow) have set fares such that the no-intermediate-taps fare does not assume Z1, and you can make a no-intermediate-taps journey using Z1, that's the fare-setter leaving money on the table, and it's not the passenger's concern at all. Examples are few, though they do exist.

For example (picked entirely at random), East Croydon (Z5) to Beckenham Junction (Z4) with no intermediate taps assumes you use only zones 4 and 5 (changing at Crystal Palace). If there is an intermediate tap in Z1, you get charged more. But if you stay 'airside' at London Bridge, you can travel in Z1 and still get charged the (lower) default.

PeterC · 20 Nov 2018

In the OPs scenario I can imagine some "discussion" possible with an RPI on the outbound leg from zone 1 regardless of the validity of the journey if a check occurred.

MikeWh · 20 Nov 2018

PeterC said:
In the OPs scenario I can imagine some "discussion" possible with an RPI on the outbound leg from zone 1 regardless of the validity of the journey if a check occurred.

We don't know where the outbound leg is headed other than it is on a different line to East Croydon. I think it is unlikely to raise any eyebrows at all.

sprunt · 20 Nov 2018

akm said:
Generally the fares will be set such that if the only taps are entry and exit, the fare charged will be the highest one reasonably chargeable (ie the including-Z1 fare), and to obtain any lower fare taps would be needed at one or more intermediate points (pink validators or actual interchanges).

Is this not only relevant for PAYG, rather than when travelling on an Oyster travelcard?

MikeWh said:
We don't know where the outbound leg is headed other than it is on a different line to East Croydon. I think it is unlikely to raise any eyebrows at all.

So if an RPI on the outward train checked the Oyster card while it was, say, in zone 2, what information would be displayed on his reader? I assume some or all of:

Has zones 4-6 travelcard
Has £x PAYG balance
Has been tapped in [at hh:mm] [at East Croydon]

If it was all of that, I'd expect it to raise an eyebrow, but then I don't know all the rules.

swt_passenger · 20 Nov 2018

sprunt said:
Is this not only relevant for PAYG, rather than when travelling on an Oyster travelcard?

So if an RPI on the outward train checked the Oyster card while it was, say, in zone 2, what information would be displayed on his reader? I assume some or all of:

Has zones 4-6 travelcard

Has £x PAYG balance

Has been tapped in [at hh:mm] [at East Croydon]

If it was all of that, I'd expect it to raise an eyebrow, but then I don't know all the rules.

It shouldn’t raise an eyebrow, because the existence of the PAYG balance means the customer is set up to tap out anywhere and pay the additional fare from zone 4 to wherever that happens to be.

sprunt · 20 Nov 2018

swt_passenger said:
It shouldn’t raise an eyebrow, because the existence of the PAYG balance means the customer is set up to tap out anywhere and pay the additional fare from zone 4 to wherever that happens to be.

Right, but they've travelled via zone 1, so shouldn't they have to pay for that? A passenger travelling on PAYG is expected to touch on a pink validator somewhere to prove they haven't travelled through zone 1 and not be charged for doing so. It seems like an anomaly if possession of a travel card for some outer zones entitles free travel via zone 1.

swt_passenger · 20 Nov 2018

sprunt said:
Right, but they've travelled via zone 1, so shouldn't they have to pay for that? A passenger travelling on PAYG is expected to touch on a pink validator somewhere to prove they haven't travelled through zone 1 and not be charged for doing so. It seems like an anomaly if possession of a travel card for some outer zones entitles free travel via zone 1.

Going into and out of zone 1 without touching out anywhere is clearly not considered an issue by TfL, as has already been posted.

yorkie · 20 Nov 2018

sprunt said:
Is this not only relevant for PAYG, rather than when travelling on an Oyster travelcard?

Providing PAYG credit is loaded, an Oyster Travelcard can be combined with PAYG for journeys outwith the zones covered by the travelcard.

The additional fare (if any) is calculated automatically by the system.

For example: Zones 1-3 Travelcard with PAYG credit may be used to travel from Aldgate to Neasden via Wembley Park. The additional sum charged is zero.

sprunt said:
So if an RPI on the outward train checked the Oyster card while it was, say, in zone 2, what information would be displayed on his reader? I assume some or all of:

Has zones 4-6 travelcard

Has £x PAYG balance

Has been tapped in [at hh:mm] [at East Croydon]

If it was all of that, I'd expect it to raise an eyebrow, but then I don't know all the rules.

The rules are explained above.

yorkie · 20 Nov 2018

sprunt said:
Right, but they've travelled via zone 1, so shouldn't they have to pay for that?

See above. The system does not always charge people for all the zones they actually travelled through.

sprunt said:
A passenger travelling on PAYG is expected to touch on a pink validator somewhere to prove they haven't travelled through zone 1 and not be charged for doing so.

This not relevant to this thread.

sprunt said:
It seems like an anomaly if possession of a travel card for some outer zones entitles free travel via zone 1.

It does not entitle "free travel via Zone 1" however there may not be an additional charge, depending on the journey being made.

sprunt · 20 Nov 2018

swt_passenger said:
Going into and out of zone 1 without touching out anywhere is clearly not considered an issue by TfL, as has already been posted.

I didn't say that it was considered an issue by Tfl, I said that it seems like an anomaly that this is the case.

sprunt · 20 Nov 2018

yorkie said:
It does not entitle "free travel via Zone 1" however there may not be an additional charge, depending on the journey being made.

Sigh. Okay then, it seems like an anomaly that in certain circumstances it entitles free travel via zone 1. Which it clearly does, specifically the circumstances described by the OP.

yorkie · 20 Nov 2018

sprunt said:
Sigh. Okay then, it seems like an anomaly that in certain circumstances it entitles free travel via zone 1. Which it clearly does, specifically the circumstances described by the OP.

In that case, it is more appropriate to say the entire system is riddled with "anomalies", given that the charge made for most journeys is based purely on tapping in and out at the start and end of the journey with no way of knowing exactly which way you went. That's simply how the PAYG system works!

There are a huge number of examples, such as those posted above (e.g. from south of Neasden to Neasden via Wembley Park, journeys such as Farringdon to Wimbledon via Wimbledon Park where you are charged as if you went via Thameslink) and many more, such as Liverpool Street to Brentwood via Shenfield, etc etc where you are not charged for going through all the zones you actually travelled through.

Deerfold · 20 Nov 2018

sprunt said:
Right, but they've travelled via zone 1, so shouldn't they have to pay for that? A passenger travelling on PAYG is expected to touch on a pink validator somewhere to prove they haven't travelled through zone 1 and not be charged for doing so. It seems like an anomaly if possession of a travel card for some outer zones entitles free travel via zone 1.

They've traveled via Zone 1. However the benefit to them is not having traveled via Zone 1, but having speeded up their journey. If the system detects and charges extra for travel via Zone 1, that's fair. If the system is not set up for that, that seems fair too.

If they leave the system in Zone 1 they get charged for that.

Deerfold · 20 Nov 2018

As least we're not having to explain the charging system of the Danish Rejsekort which will sometimes charge you for fewer zones than you've travelled even when you've touched in and out in all those zones.

sprunt · 20 Nov 2018

Deerfold said:
As least we're not having to explain the charging system of the Danish Rejsekort which will sometimes charge you for fewer zones than you've travelled even when you've touched in and out in all those zones.

No, but now that I know this I do feel like going to the International Transport sub-forum and starting a thread called "Can anyone explain the charging system of the Danish Rejsekort?"

Starmill · 20 Nov 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
But how is the fare for travelling via Zone 1 paid if you only hold a Zones 4-6 Travelcard. I am very much of the view that exploiting this "anomaly" could be seen as fare evasion.

I don't agree it is in any way an "anomaly". I have travelled from a station in Zone 1 to a station in Zone 2 passing through many stations in zones 3, 4, 5 and 6. As it happens this was a through train, so it would have been perfectly permitted on a paper single as well as using Oyster.

One is no more an anomaly than the other. Rather, it's expected behaviour. In both cases there is a possibility that you would pay a higher fare if you left the train part-way roud the loop.

The only limiting factor on PAYG is the maximum jounrey time, and of course you should not travel back to the same station where you touched in.

Travelling via Zone 1: do you need to tap out and back in at the place you change trains?

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