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South Wales 'Metro' updates
- Thread starter Envoy
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Envoy
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I see that some of you think that I went off the core topic (South Wales Metro) when mentioning east - west services through Newport. The reason for mentioning this is because certain politicians (as well as posters on this forum), seem to be of the opinion that should the Welsh Government decide to build a new M4 south of Newport, that this will take a large amount of money that should be spent on the railways in Wales - including the Metro project. I am of the opinion that the situation on the Newport section of the M4 is completely unacceptable - and has been for years. Whilst I desire a successful rail system that induces people off the roads, I also realise that road transport is and will continue to be a major way in which people and goods move about the country.
I further mentioned some of the inadequate train services on the routes linking Cardiff with England as these are partly the reason for such high volumes of traffic on the M4 - despite the jams at Newport. I further note that ‘Metro’ maps have included stations such as St.Mellons and the eastern valleys. So, whilst we have mainly been discussing those valleys that come down from the north into Queen Street plus the lines that go to Penarth, Barry and via the coast to Bridgend, I have no objection to anyone who also wishes to mention the wider area.
I further mentioned some of the inadequate train services on the routes linking Cardiff with England as these are partly the reason for such high volumes of traffic on the M4 - despite the jams at Newport. I further note that ‘Metro’ maps have included stations such as St.Mellons and the eastern valleys. So, whilst we have mainly been discussing those valleys that come down from the north into Queen Street plus the lines that go to Penarth, Barry and via the coast to Bridgend, I have no objection to anyone who also wishes to mention the wider area.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Thanks for that explanation, no problem
Envoy
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I don’t know if this is of interest to anyone but the plans for new suburbs in NE Cardiff are now being drawn up. No mention is made of the nearest rail station = Llanishen. The parking at the station is already overloaded and I would suggest that more parking needs to be created. (People are using nearby streets). Neither is any mention made of a bus service from the new suburbs to Llanishen station. (Switching to the trains at this location would surely be desirable and much quicker than using buses to the city centre).
(Although nothing to do with the metro, I also note that no direct link is being provided with the M4 at J30 and that traffic will be sent on winding routes through residential areas. Presumably this is all in the name of ‘sustainability’? I have also been told that in order to discourage car ownership, that the Council has demanded that a significant proportion of the houses have no parking. Of course, the people will still have cars and they will just be cluttering up the roads. You would think that with the likely switch over to electric cars that any new houses should have garage parking with charging points)?
(Although nothing to do with the metro, I also note that no direct link is being provided with the M4 at J30 and that traffic will be sent on winding routes through residential areas. Presumably this is all in the name of ‘sustainability’? I have also been told that in order to discourage car ownership, that the Council has demanded that a significant proportion of the houses have no parking. Of course, the people will still have cars and they will just be cluttering up the roads. You would think that with the likely switch over to electric cars that any new houses should have garage parking with charging points)?
http://www.grasshopperconsult.co.uk/projects/taylor-wimpey-north-east-cardiff/
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This is similar to the current development on the green field site at St Mellons. Yet again, no sensible public transport provisions. The Cardiff Metro won't address any of this and that will mean the residents will be entirely dependant on car ownership.
The surrounding area is one of the most desirable in Cardiff (Lisvane, Cyncoed), so it's an opportunity to build homes that will yield a high price. Transport links will be non-existent, except for road access to J30 of the M4 and the A48.
Cardiff123
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Sadly these new housing developments typify the approach to planning of the leaderships of Cardiff Council and Welsh Govt.
They make all the right noises about supporting 'active travel, sustainable and public transport', but in reality are stuck in 20th century thinking.
It's deeply depressing.
They make all the right noises about supporting 'active travel, sustainable and public transport', but in reality are stuck in 20th century thinking.
It's deeply depressing.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
That's probably the sort of area where a tram-train could really come into its own if used imaginitively.
Envoy
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It would surely be pretty well impossible to get a tram-train system into this area of north-east Cardiff. All the more reason, as I see it, to ensure that through ticketing is available from the new residential areas for a bus to Llanishen station and then the train. I would also have no objection to people using their cars for the relatively short hop from home to the nearest station - hence the need for additional parking at Llanishen before the ‘population explosion’.Even if a tram-train was able to go into the new residential area and then join the Caerphilly line, it would surely screw up the schedules? Only a rail system that is segregated from the roads can virtually guarantee timings - which is what we have at present.
Surely, battery powered buses is the way to go for routes which cannot be easily reached by rail? This gives flexibility to change route easily in the event of a road blockage. Digging up roads for tram tracks is more expensive and if something goes wrong with sewers, gas mains etc. under the route, you have major problems.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I haven't worked this through in any detail, but the concept would indeed be a tramway branch off the heavy rail line, aligned for reasonable running speeds and planned in before the housing was built (yes I know). This would avoid the very difficult area north of Queen Street where the roads are very cramped but there is capacity on the double-track railway. Some street running would be needed in the city centre (perhaps of other routes rather than this one) to relieve capacity through Queen Street. I agree in reality the best that can be hoped for is a connecting bus, though that is difficult in a deregulated system and I have some doubts people would want to have a change of vehicle on a relatively short journey.
PaulHarding150
Member
Thanks for this, I was away last week so I've only just had a look at it. It seems it's been approved by Cardiff Council, no reference to the railway station was made.
Here are all the planning documents: https://planningonline.cardiff.gov....iveTab=documents&keyVal=_CARDIFF_DCAPR_124878
And for convenance here is the footprint of the building: https://planningonline.cardiff.gov....ITELOCATIONPLAN_1_70619980000.PDF-2079182.pdf
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Amey have been put up for sale by their parent company, official line is "it doesn't effect Metro" however given the history of the bidding process with bidders dropping out and construction partners going ping...........................
Did the quote really spell 'affect' that way?
krus_aragon
Established Member
It's not in the linked article, but I'd hope that Amey will indeed "effect" the Metro, as if they don't who will? 
Envoy
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Followers of this forum may like to know that a TV programme > ‘How Metro Systems Have Shaped Cities’ will be shown on Quest tonight (Monday 17 Dec 2018) at 9pm. (The following programme will be about The Glacier Express).
Quest TV is on Freeview 37 SD or 114 HD on some transmitters; Freesat 167 (HD); Sky 144 (HD) & Virgin 172 in SD/217 HD.
Quest TV is on Freeview 37 SD or 114 HD on some transmitters; Freesat 167 (HD); Sky 144 (HD) & Virgin 172 in SD/217 HD.
I won't be able to watch it, but if I could I would ask myself whether the so-called "metro" will actually have a bigger impact on the valleys than on Cardiff itself (perhaps excepting the bay area). If it does, that's fine by me.
Cardiff123
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So once again on New Year's Day 2019 there will be NO Valley lines services at all through Queen Street.
How can this still be happening in 2019? People go out to work, shop, play etc on NYD just like any other bank holiday. This isn't the same as the Boxing Day argument as nothing runs on Boxing Day anywhere on the network. But on NYD the vast majority of the rail network has trains running, the fact that the Valley lines has no service at all is now an anomaly.
Surely it was agreed as part of the new franchise to have Valley lines services running on New Year's Day? I've read plenty about increasing Sunday services but nothing about NYD.
How can this still be happening in 2019? People go out to work, shop, play etc on NYD just like any other bank holiday. This isn't the same as the Boxing Day argument as nothing runs on Boxing Day anywhere on the network. But on NYD the vast majority of the rail network has trains running, the fact that the Valley lines has no service at all is now an anomaly.
Surely it was agreed as part of the new franchise to have Valley lines services running on New Year's Day? I've read plenty about increasing Sunday services but nothing about NYD.
Dai Corner
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TfW Rail have tweeted that it's due to NR engineering work
Cardiff123
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Which we know is not true. If TfW Rail we're being prevented from providing a NYD service due to NR engineering work, replacement buses would be running. But nothing is running at all.
Meanwhile Ebbw Vale, Maesteg and Vale of Glamorgan get a 1tph NYD service, so why are the City line and all Valley lines through Queen Street just abandoned?
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PHILIPE
Veteran Member
This goes back as far as approx 1990 when Cardiff Valleys decided not to run a service but this was when people's habits and shopping patterns were different. Since then, it has been carried forward through the franchises and ATW wouldn't do anything about it because it wasn't a franchise commitment, and even if they did try, they would have lost money on running a service. I have read, when this topic has been raised in the past, that the Valley guards are not contracted through the franchise agreement, to work on New Years Day. It is a farce Grangetown, that Ebbw Vale has a train service but Rhymney just over the hill doesn't. Grangetown, Eastbrook, Dinas Powys, Cogan, Barry Dock and Barry Town have a part service because the route is also served by the VOG service.
Fingers crossed for 2020. It is an issue that has nothing to do with the Metro.
PaulHarding150
Member
Two assembly Question from 2013:
Eluned Parrott (South Wales Central): Will the Minister plan to make it a requirement in the next Wales and Borders Franchise for trains to run on Boxing Day and New Year’s Day across Valley Lines network. (WAQ61930)
Answer received for publication on 16 January 2013
Carl Sargeant: This will be considered for the specification of the next Wales & Borders franchise.
**
Eluned Parrott (South Wales Central): Has the Minister had any correspondence with rail operators regarding Boxing Day and New Year’s Day train services. (WAQ61931)
Answer received for publication on 16 January 2013
Carl Sargeant: No.
Hmmm.
Eluned Parrott (South Wales Central): Will the Minister plan to make it a requirement in the next Wales and Borders Franchise for trains to run on Boxing Day and New Year’s Day across Valley Lines network. (WAQ61930)
Answer received for publication on 16 January 2013
Carl Sargeant: This will be considered for the specification of the next Wales & Borders franchise.
**
Eluned Parrott (South Wales Central): Has the Minister had any correspondence with rail operators regarding Boxing Day and New Year’s Day train services. (WAQ61931)
Answer received for publication on 16 January 2013
Carl Sargeant: No.
Hmmm.
Cardiff123
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You're right that the issue of there being no Valleys NYD services is not explicitly linked to the Metro, but these lines will be part of the 'Metro' in future and for these Valleys not to be getting a NYD service in 2019 going in to the 2020s when other Valleys do is absurd.
I posted this in here because the thread in the general forum about the franchise was closed in October.
Meanwhile, even if NYD services are re-instated on the Valleys through Queen St from 2020, I don't think there will be a full NYD rail service in 2020 or 2021, as when these lines are handed over the TfW next autumn, the electrification work on these lines will begin and according to James Price's recent evidence to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills committee at the Assembly, starting end of 2019 there will be 12-18 months of intensive infrastructure works, resulting in regular overnight and weekend line closures north of Queen St, so I expect over the Christmas and New Year periods we'll see full line closures.
But hopefully an extensive replacement bus service will be provided on NYD instead.
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Llanigraham
On Moderation
How do you know it isn't true? Evidence please?
And if there are no bus companies willing to do the work, which is quite likely considering what day it is, where do you think they can get buses from? There is no magic bus tree.
adrock1976
Established Member
Educational Institute for Scotland? (Union for teachers and college lecturers).
You can see why it has been a long standing forum policy not to use acronyms, abbreviations, or jargon without first saying what it means.
Back on topic, perhaps some sort of limited service for New Year could be introduced on the routes via Queen Street?
Cardiff123
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Economy, Infrastructure and Skills committee.
Cardiff123
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The Valley lines through Queen Street and the Penarth/Barry Island branches haven't had a New Year's Day service in decades. As Philipe has said, this is most likely due to Cardiff Valleys crews not having NYD working in their contracts.
There's no engineering work on the Vale of Glamorgan line as 1tph is running Cardiff - Barry - Bridgend. So why doesn't Barry Island or Penarth have a NYD service?
Why have the Valley lines through Queen Street not had a NYD service for decades when everywhere else in Wales gets a NYD train service?
I suspect the people on twitter don't know the real reason why there's no NYD Valleys services so just used the standard blame Network Rail excuse.
Because Valleys traincrew are at depots on different terms and conditions from the rest of the franchise? ie they are on the original Valleys Lines franchise contracts whereas others are still on the original Wales and West or First North Western contract terms in this regard?
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
`Nobody has taken the matter seriously over the years and ATW probably just said OK when the 2003 ATW franchise was awarded.
They were perhaps afraid to say as much as "BOO" to the DFT. There was nothing to prevent ATW from running a service but that would have cost them money. It wouldn't be possible to run to Barry Island or Penarth because they are Cardiff Valley crews, whereas the VOG is worked by Cardiff Main Line or Carmarthen crews.
We get this discussion every year, not surprisingly
berneyarms
Established Member
ATW had a no growth franchise so that wasn’t going to change unless the WG paid for it. Why would they operate a service for which they weren’t getting paid?
Changing employees’ terms of employment (or hiring additional staff on different contacts) that facilitates NYD Valleys trains (if that’s what’s needed) isn’t something that’s going to happen straight away under the new franchise.
That’s going to require a reasonable period of negotiation with the rail unions. Things like this always take time unfortunately.
Changing employees’ terms of employment (or hiring additional staff on different contacts) that facilitates NYD Valleys trains (if that’s what’s needed) isn’t something that’s going to happen straight away under the new franchise.
That’s going to require a reasonable period of negotiation with the rail unions. Things like this always take time unfortunately.