Very unlikely, the RPI will see that the card has been touched in and move on to the next passenger. Having to travel between different places in the outskirts of London via Zone 1 is not very unusal.
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Travelling via Zone 1: do you need to tap out and back in at the place you change trains?
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Very unlikely, the RPI will see that the card has been touched in and move on to the next passenger. Having to travel between different places in the outskirts of London via Zone 1 is not very unusal.
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Surreytraveller
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In other words, you are permitted to double - back when you are using Oyster
I think it's more reasonable to say, as yorkie does that there are many anomalies. An obvious example is, and forgive me if I'm mistaken, travelling from, say, East Croydon to St Pancras, changing to a stopping train there and travelling to Borehamwood and Elstree using an oyster card with a zones 4-6 travelcard would attract an extra PAYG fare. In essence, this is no different to what the OP's friend is doing - travelling from the area of validity to a zone 1 station, changing to another train at the same station and travelling to another station in the area of validity.
Their only way to enforce a higher fare is by setting a default fare for a start and end point which results in it, which is done for example on the London Overground where journeys which go across Shoreditch High Street (the sole station in Zone 1 on the line) will be charged as going through zone 1 for a zone 2 - zone 2 journey, for example. The pink reader kludge can be provided for routes where the default is a higher charge. I imagine nobody cares about people doubling back via Zone 1 - the passenger isn't doing anything nefarious (sometimes it's the only way to go) and nobody's harmed by it.
Does doubling back imply (or specifically refer to) passing through the same station twice? That needn't necessarily be the case with the scenario raised by the OP - my guess for this is that their friend is travelling into London Bridge via New Cross Gate, and travelling out again via New Cross and either Beckhenham Junction or Elmer's End.
ForTheLoveOf
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I think the situation differs greatly between PAYG and having a Travelcard.
I think the issue with having a Travelcard and travelling via a Zone not covered by it, in such a way as you know will cause you not to be charged extra, is that you end up (and intend to end up) travelling for a certain stretch without paying for it at all. So there is no consideration whatsover for the travel via Zone 1.
With PAYG you will be paying something either way - it just so happens that, in some cases, certain origin/destination combinations will result in the passenger being given the benefit of the doubt if it is not known what route they took. But you are still paying something, and it could well be argued that the TOCs accept the fare for such journeys as sufficient consideration to implicitly include travel via Zone 1.
I find it hard to argue that any such implicit validity is included when you pay for a Zones 4-6 Travelcard, as this self-evidently does not cover any journeys outside those Zones.
I regard an anomaly as being permitted to undercut a fare for a journey I actually made.
These are cases of the normal fare being charged for the journey being made. The customer has several options for the route they can take, certainly. In my view its wrong for those options to be restricted in any way which forces the customer to use a slower route.
There are myriad examples of the restrictions of customer rights in that way all over the country. This is one example where the customer does not have their rights restricted in that way. They start there journey one place and end it in another. Fundamentally they're charged on the basis of that, and in my view that is absolutely right.
Nobody is arguing this. The OP's friend is paying their fare every time using PAYG. That fare might sometimes be £0. That's perfectly permitted under the Oyster conditions.
This point really is not up for debate!
The difference is that the default fare for East Croydon to Borehamwood can be set to one that reflects travel via Zone 1, and is. Different fares can also be set to reflect whether or not the Underground has been used, for example the default peak fare East Croydon - Elstree and Borehamwood is 6.40. If a change to the Underground is made, an 8.00 fare is charged.
There are many other routes where the only sensible default doesn't go through any additional zones, and it's impossible to know the route actually taken.
It's not that unlikely. The bus network in some zone 6 areas is a lot less comprehensive than some people might guess!
Again this is really not true. The customer is paying for their Travelcard, and the situation where the Travelcard is used in combination with PAYG is covered (with good clarity) in the conditions. The customer can't make the journey for £0 without the Travelcard. Therefore there clearly is consideration.
Some of the posts in the thread are making a problem where none actually exists. The way the Oyster system works is that you need to:
The possible fares for a journey can be found at the TfL Single Fare Finder (sadly it doesn't take into account Travelcards that cover part of the journey). Where there multiple routes that TfL deem reasonable and there are no intermediate gatelines to determine which way you went, the system will give you the benefit of doubt and charge the cheaper route. TfL know about this and it is allowed.
For the flows where this would cause a big revenue loss, TfL have installed pink readers to disambiguate the routes, but they don't want to install pink readers everywhere, so sometimes you can indeed go via additional zones without extra payment.
- make sure you have enough Pay as you go credit to travel through the zones you intend to travel through which are not covered by any Travelcards you hold
- touch in and out at the very start and end of the journey
- touch at any gateline that you go through
- touch any pink reader you pass,
The possible fares for a journey can be found at the TfL Single Fare Finder (sadly it doesn't take into account Travelcards that cover part of the journey). Where there multiple routes that TfL deem reasonable and there are no intermediate gatelines to determine which way you went, the system will give you the benefit of doubt and charge the cheaper route. TfL know about this and it is allowed.
For the flows where this would cause a big revenue loss, TfL have installed pink readers to disambiguate the routes, but they don't want to install pink readers everywhere, so sometimes you can indeed go via additional zones without extra payment.
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ForTheLoveOf
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If that is the case, then surely a Zones 4-6 Travelcard should also be called a "Zones 4-6, plus any zones you can travel through without the system knowing it's not Zones 4-6" Tralevcard. Wordy, but more accurate - if that is the true intention behind the system.
Really? Who would that benefit?
You appear to be creating a problem where none exists. This use case is unambigiously following the rules and there is no evidence it would raise suspicoun of some kind of fare evasion, as it has been commonplace since the inception of Oyster (or, at least, since the end of the Oyster Extension Permits).
Compare this to the myriad situations where you espouse the excercising of far, far less clear rights, where there is a far, far greater chance you will be perceieved as having tried to avoid paying (regardless of the truth of that).
No, no, no, no, no!
If the journey you make is charged as zones 4-6 when using PAYG, you will be charged no more if you have a travelcard covering zones 4-6. That is how the system works. I think this thread has probably run it's course now so I'm going to lock it. If anyone believes they have anything further to add then please use the "contact us" link at the bottom of any forum page and the team will consider re-opening it.
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