"New Build" - Steam and Heritage Diesel

sprinterguy · 20 Nov 2018

STEVIEBOY1 said:
Is there not already a "Cock o'the North". ? I am sure that I have been on a train hauled by that in fairly recent years, perhaps either on the Jacobite or NYMR?

There isn't (EDIT: Apparently there was for a while, my apologies!): The only suggestion I have is the K1 mogul 62005, which is usually based on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway and frequently used on the Jacobite, and carries the phonetically similar sounding name "Lord of the Isles" in preservation.

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E50019 · 20 Nov 2018

9F 92214 was named as such while at the NYMR on a temporary basis.

sprinterguy · 20 Nov 2018

E50019 said:
9F 92214 was named as such while at the NYMR on a temporary basis.

Ah, that had completely passed me by!

STEVIEBOY1 · 20 Nov 2018

sprinterguy said:
There isn't (EDIT: Apparently there was for a while, my apologies!): The only suggestion I have is the K1 mogul 62005, which is usually based on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway and frequently used on the Jacobite, and carries the phonetically similar sounding name "Lord of the Isles" in preservation.

I think perhaps that is what I may have been thinking of.

ALAN BYRNE · 20 Nov 2018

trash80 said:
One survivor is being returned to steam in that state, plus there are quite a few preserved Merchant Navy class, wouldn't you rather a type of loco that didn't survive was built?

Of Course, but then then again an original Merchant Navy did not survive ( interestingly enough, 'Clan Line' was the last in original condition, lasting until late 1959), so this would also count as reviving something which we currently don't have

markindurham · 20 Nov 2018

35011 is simply being restored to 'as built' condition. Simple as that.

Cowley · 20 Nov 2018

35011 is a strange one really.
Alright it might (arguably) cost the same as restoring a rebuilt MN to working condition. But the Merchant Navy’s were rebuilt for a reason.
The average punter (or perhaps even the average modern day rail enthusiast?) wouldn’t notice the difference between an unrebuilt West Country and an original Merchant Navy if it was on the front of the train, and it seems like a case of recreating something that’ll be more demanding to repair just for the sake of it.
Of course it’s their money and their large amount of rusty iron to do what they want with, and I won’t be knocking them if they achieve it.

markindurham · 21 Nov 2018

With modern materials for such things as the oil bath seals and inside the steam reverser, it's quite possible that the restored 35011 will be able to run well, and in the manner which its designer intended. Tangmere, for example, hasn't had oil seal issues - other problems, yes, but not anything to do with the oil bath. At least 35011 will be something different to look forward to. Good luck to her and her supporters.

Journeyman · 21 Nov 2018

markindurham said:
With modern materials for such things as the oil bath seals and inside the steam reverser, it's quite possible that the restored 35011 will be able to run well, and in the manner which its designer intended. Tangmere, for example, hasn't had oil seal issues - other problems, yes, but not anything to do with the oil bath. At least 35011 will be something different to look forward to. Good luck to her and her supporters.

I'm firmly of the opinion that modern precision engineering, and a couple of judicious design changes, would make a replica "Leader" completely viable. If I had a spare few million, I'd certainly see about getting one built. Imagine one of those at speed on the main line!

markindurham · 21 Nov 2018

Journeyman said:
I'm firmly of the opinion that modern precision engineering, and a couple of judicious design changes, would make a replica "Leader" completely viable. If I had a spare few million, I'd certainly see about getting one built. Imagine one of those at speed on the main line!

You do know that the Leader, by design, was only capable of producing the same power output as an M7 0-4-4T don't you? If someone wants to go for it, then that's their perogative, but that is one project that I really can't see happening.

Journeyman · 21 Nov 2018

markindurham said:
You do know that the Leader, by design, was only capable of producing the same power output as an M7 0-4-4T don't you? If someone wants to go for it, then that's their perogative, but that is one project that I really can't see happening.

I think it was somewhat more powerful than that, but I do know it was aimed at replacing M7s, which was utterly bonkers.

pdeaves · 21 Nov 2018

I personally think Leader would be a better recreation choice than many of the other offerings simply because it was so different. All others are quite traditional in their engineering and appearance. Dare I say that for some of the recreations, many people won't be able to tell the difference between it and an 'authentic' locomotive!

Paul Hitchcock · 21 Nov 2018

pdeaves said:
I personally think Leader would be a better recreation choice than many of the other offerings simply because it was so different. All others are quite traditional in their engineering and appearance. Dare I say that for some of the recreations, many people won't be able to tell the difference between it and an 'authentic' locomotive!

AAArghh! For goodness sake produce something that has a reasonable chance of actually working in a reasonable period and not parting those of wishful thought from their money for no purpose. This machine does not meet these criteria.

trash80 · 21 Nov 2018

Seeing a Leader would be fascinating. I'd also like to see one of the steam turbine locos such as the Reid-Ramsey one.

Obviously we are in the realms of far fantasy now.

JohnElliott · 21 Nov 2018

A new-build Leader ought to be oil-fired to avoid the problems with the offset boiler. I'd sooner see a Turbomotive though.

markindurham · 21 Nov 2018

Turbomotive would be a practical choice; the original did good work; only a lack of spares kept her out of service for any length of time. Her withdrawal for rebuilding as the ill-fated "Princess Anne" was a consequence of her being non-standard and requiring some very expensive spares..

One caveat - a bigger reversing turbine would be essential; the original loco could barely move herself in reverse, never mind hauling even a short train.

Spartacus · 21 Nov 2018

I think the problems with keeping the original Princess Anne running would be multiplied for a new build turbomotive, running mainline can be very precarious financially for any loco, I can't imagine one that requires more funds on a regular basis even being considered.

Shimbleshanks · 21 Nov 2018

If money is no object, rather than replicate something from the past why not create a modern steam loco building on the work of Dante Porta or the American Coal Enterprises project of the 1980s?

AndrewE · 21 Nov 2018

JohnElliott said:
A new-build Leader ought to be oil-fired to avoid the problems with the offset boiler...

and to take the fireman out of the enclosed firing / furnace cubicle! I guess that would mean significant re-design to relocate (at least) gauge glasses, injector pipework and controls though. Would they be duplicated in both cabs?

Cowley · 21 Nov 2018

AndrewE said:
and to take the fireman out of the enclosed firing / furnace cubicle! I guess that would mean significant re-design to relocate (at least) gauge glasses, injector pipework and controls though. Would they be duplicated in both cabs?

I suppose they could just be in one cab. But with that cab being made slightly larger than on the prototype.

AndrewE · 21 Nov 2018

Cowley said:
I suppose they could just be in one cab. But with that cab being made slightly larger than on the prototype.

So I guess you would have to turn the boiler round then (to have the backplate at one of the the ends of the loco,) although that's probably not a problem if you go for oil or powdered coal firing.

alexl92 · 21 Nov 2018

Shimbleshanks said:
If money is no object, rather than replicate something from the past why not create a modern steam loco building on the work of Dante Porta or the American Coal Enterprises project of the 1980s?

I think a large part of the appeal of steam is the nostalgia; recreating the past. It may be interesting to see what modern technology could do with steam power but I don’t think it would hold anywhere near the same appeal. The 5AT project had that idea and frankly the artists impression of their proposed loco was disgustigly ugly and would have been totally out of place on a British heritage line.

I think most people prefer what’s happened with no.2007: take a past design that had a brilliant idea but was flawed, find out why and use modern tech to fix the problems. It’s the best of both - modern engineering enabling the nostalgia whilst acknowledging its roots.

MarkyT · 22 Nov 2018

alexl92 said:
I think a large part of the appeal of steam is the nostalgia; recreating the past. It may be interesting to see what modern technology could do with steam power but I don’t think it would hold anywhere near the same appeal. The 5AT project had that idea and frankly the artists impression of their proposed loco was disgustigly ugly and would have been totally out of place on a British heritage line.

I wouldn't say the proposed 5AT was ugly. It's semi-streamlined form was quite similar to some late European and US designs, and it had all the usual steam loco features that non-enthusiasts would recognise, unlike radical designs like Bullied's Leader for example which to many people would be indistinguishable from a diesel. Illustrations of the 5AT often included a yellow front end, which I agree was particularly ugly, but presumably that wouldn't be required today.

markindurham · 22 Nov 2018

Porta/Wardale/5AT ideas were put to the embryonic A1 Trust when they first proposed building Tornado. They weren't taken on, because, rightly, it wouldn't have been an A1 (yes, Tornado isn't an exact replica either, because she required modern materials to conform to present day legislation etc etc, but she certainly looks like an A1) and questions were asked about how it might affect any 'grandfather rights, amongst other things. Had there been any real interest to see a 5AT, that was when such a project would have got off the ground. Given the success of Tornado, and with others following, I think that the 5ATs time has come and gone. Even the Americans who seem set on challenging Mallard's world speed record have gone for building an older design locomotive, which speaks volumes.

InterCity:125 · 22 Nov 2018

I’d like to see a new class 251/261 built.

trash80 · 22 Nov 2018

Different things appeal to different crowds, i can see the 5AT appealing to a lot of people but a different crowd to the nostalgia lot.

A loco i'd love to see rebuilt is 10800, its a shame that pioneer didn't survive (it wasn't scrapped until the 70s). A project could built one and a Class 16 which was very similar.

Flying Phil · 22 Nov 2018

Another thing that is interesting in this thread, is that Mr Bulleid's designs still attract such partisan opinions........70 years on!

JayDee · 22 Nov 2018

Shimbleshanks said:
If money is no object, rather than replicate something from the past why not create a modern steam loco building on the work of Dante Porta or the American Coal Enterprises project of the 1980s?

alexl92 said:
I think a large part of the appeal of steam is the nostalgia; recreating the past. It may be interesting to see what modern technology could do with steam power but I don’t think it would hold anywhere near the same appeal. The 5AT project had that idea and frankly the artists impression of their proposed loco was disgustigly ugly and would have been totally out of place on a British heritage line.

I think most people prefer what’s happened with no.2007: take a past design that had a brilliant idea but was flawed, find out why and use modern tech to fix the problems. It’s the best of both - modern engineering enabling the nostalgia whilst acknowledging its roots.

MarkyT said:
I wouldn't say the proposed 5AT was ugly. It's semi-streamlined form was quite similar to some late European and US designs, and it had all the usual steam loco features that non-enthusiasts would recognise, unlike radical designs like Bullied's Leader for example which to many people would be indistinguishable from a diesel. Illustrations of the 5AT often included a yellow front end, which I agree was particularly ugly, but presumably that wouldn't be required today.

The problem, as I could see it is the 5at folks tried to widen the appeal of the locomotive for funding. But I agree, it looks very alien to British eyes. There was some attempts at a more British outlined 8astt but these too have vanished, replaced once again with ugly continental practise.

There's a few designs and concepts out there like the Cuban Prometheus locomotive that would be excellent as a weekday locomotive for many UK heritage lines but would need to be made suitably British to appeal.

randyrippley · 23 Nov 2018

trash80 said:
.................A loco i'd love to see rebuilt is 10800, its a shame that pioneer didn't survive (it wasn't scrapped until the 70s). A project could built one and a Class 16 which was very similar.

Its a shame the thing was ever built: without it the wastes of money which became classes 15 & 16 would never have happened.

Pigeon · 23 Nov 2018

We'd only have had some different wastes of money of comparable size. If it had occurred to anyone that there was no point getting diesel replacements for the tankies they were getting rid of if they were also getting rid of the traffic the tankies were used on, we wouldn't have had Class 17 and 14 either. All the locos in that size range were a waste of money due to being obsolete before they were even built.

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