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Why The Obsession With Electric cars?

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radamfi

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Sounds like some kind of soviet inspired hell. Good for twenty somethings wanting the night life and social aspect of living in a city, but maybe not so good for families with young children, elderly, disabled, etc. But each to their own I suppose.

But with automation, internet, robotics, artificial intelligence etc., won't the next generation be more likely to be working from home (at least some days per week) rather than the current daily commute in their thousands to big city centre office blocks, so living close to work will be pretty irrelevant for huge numbers of people?

Households are now smaller so that more people are now living alone or are couples with one or even no children. There are a lot of empty bedrooms in big houses at the moment. Arguably having all your amenities on your doorstep would be good for disabled and elderly people and they won't have to rely on buses, which often barely exist now anyway.
 
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Groningen

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I have already given a reply, but this is much clear. Taxbreak in the Netherlands.
 

Bletchleyite

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Uber is more than that it is a cynical, exploitative and secretive organisation whose only goal is to make it's founders the wealthiest men alive. it uses secretive technology to prevent enforcement by authorities it pays its serfs a pittance and ignores or circumvents the laws which it's competition must abide by plus it makes sure governments are on it's side with generous political donations.

But that kind of view doesn't affect what it is from an end user's point of view any more than your views on Mike Ashley make Sports Direct any less of a sports shop.
 

Bletchleyite

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Households are now smaller so that more people are now living alone or are couples with one or even no children. There are a lot of empty bedrooms in big houses at the moment. Arguably having all your amenities on your doorstep would be good for disabled and elderly people and they won't have to rely on buses, which often barely exist now anyway.

That has no bearing on tower blocks, though. You could also build tenement blocks or one-bedroom terraced houses/back to backs[1]. But those things aren't built because they aren't as profitable as big houses.

[1] Modern parlance is "cluster homes", but let's call a spade a spade :)
 

Ken H

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But with automation, internet, robotics, artificial intelligence etc., won't the next generation be more likely to be working from home (at least some days per week) rather than the current daily commute in their thousands to big city centre office blocks, so living close to work will be pretty irrelevant for huge numbers of people?

What work will that be?
Automation, robotics, low maintenance kit and computers will take out more and more jobs.

Look at ASDA petrol stations that are 100% pay at pump - no staff
Look at the spread of self scan in shops - even small shops. And McDonalds.
Network rail say 4000 signallers jobs will go with their plans for 12 signalling centres
I am sure rail ticket offices will go very soon at all but large stations
banks branches are closing fast. internet banking has made them largely redundant.
LED street lamps - fit and forget. they dont get hot so dont destroy the fittings.
better and faster computer software.
Robotics. they have shown robots can pick soft fruit and lay bricks.
The Norton Bridge Flyover. they used pre fab structures to cut costs and to cut the amount of working near the live railway.
Car service intervals will get longer and longer. My fist car in the 1970's was 3,000. My current is 20,000. Regen braking will cut brake wear too. And SWT justified re-tractioning old trains so they were maintained less, so they didnt need to expand Wimbledon Depot.
 

underbank

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What work will that be?
Automation, robotics, low maintenance kit and computers will take out more and more jobs.

In my post you quoted I referred to office based jobs which I am pretty sure will be mostly "work from home" as I said which will mean the end of the daily commute into city centre offices.

Of course, lots of jobs will be lost due to automation. If that means more unemployment or part time working, then even less need for people to live in city centres as they won't be doing the daily commute - perhaps they'd be better located in more rural areas to be more convenient for leisure activities? Who knows what the future holds.

But at the same time, lots of new jobs will be created because of automation - people are needed to design and build the "robots", people are needed to repair them, people will also be needed for the next "new thing" we havn't even thought of yet. Take driverless cars, there'll be people needed in control centres to look after the network and deal with problems - that's a whole new industry in itself.

What I'm getting at is that encouraging people to live in city centres, where "today's" jobs are located may be completely barmy if people's working patterns change and by the time all these new high rise flats are built, there aren't any jobs in the city centre anymore.

I think we should be aiming towards flexibility to cope with whatever the employment and leisure scene looks like in 10 or 20 years time, i.e. better public transport throughout the country, massive investment in technology, i.e. superfast broadband in all areas, etc., to move away from the daily grind and crowded commuting into city centres to do a job that the person could just as easily have done at home or in an office or workspace close to home to avoid that commute in the first place.
 

radamfi

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The technology already exists for many people to work from home, for example Skype for Business and remote network connections, but most people still go into the office most of the time.
 

JohnMcL7

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But only if programmed to cope with that exact scenario. Humans can think on their feet and make snap decisions on events that haven't been pre-planned for.

They don't need to be programmed with the exact scenario at all and unfortunately we've proven beyond doubt this is definitely not something humans are good at as accident statistics sadly show. Unfortunately we as a culture we just seem to accept that people get killed or seriously injured by cars all the time even though most of those are caused by driver error so while an automated car may not be flawless it will not get tired, it won't take alcohol or drugs, it won't check its phone, it won't suffer lapses due to old age or illness etc. The main issue for them and the cause of crashes is unpredictable driving by humans and the more automated cars there are out there with consistent behaviour, the more that risk goes down.

With regards to the topic, electric cars are cool and that's all that matters for now. Hybrid cars were cool primarily brought on by the Prius but now they're not cool so everyone is dumping them and moving onto EV cars. I'm a big fan of Le Mans and you can see the effects there with Audi dumping their diesel car because diesel is definitely not cool at all after the emissions scandal but then the shock was Porsche dumping their petrol hybrid as well because hybrids are no longer cool and now the companies are instead focusing on Formula E because the market likes EV cars at the moment.
 

Groningen

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Parking charge will be lower in Amsterdam for electric cars than other ones.
 

Lucan

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Computers are entirely capable of making a split second decision - better at it than humans as they don't panic or get emotional.
For SD [self-driving] cars, the software will need to become far better at decision making than any GPS navigator I've yet seen, and navigators can be considered as indicative of SD tech as a whole. They make some very dubious decisions.

Also I prefer some of my "emotional" decisions : for example I often prefer to drive a scenic route rather than a souless modernised road; and in car parks I prefer to park a long way from its pedestrian exit, but no doubt a self-driving car would place me at near to it as possible as a "favour". SD cars will be programmed according to the assumptions of those who program them.
 

Ken H

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For SD [self-driving] cars, the software will need to become far better at decision making than any GPS navigator I've yet seen, and navigators can be considered as indicative of SD tech as a whole. They make some very dubious decisions.

Also I prefer some of my "emotional" decisions : for example I often prefer to drive a scenic route rather than a souless modernised road; and in car parks I prefer to park a long way from its pedestrian exit, but no doubt a self-driving car would place me at near to it as possible as a "favour". SD cars will be programmed according to the assumptions of those who program them.
well we know the idiots who program a lot of PC stuff that are just annoying. In Word, try copying part of a word. It will decide you want the whole word all the time. Imagine an annoying feature like that built into you car that you cant turn off.
 

Bletchleyite

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For SD [self-driving] cars, the software will need to become far better at decision making than any GPS navigator I've yet seen, and navigators can be considered as indicative of SD tech as a whole. They make some very dubious decisions.

I find Waze generally makes sensible decisions. Of course a present-day satnav is designed as a driver aid, software designed to drive a vehicle on its own will necessarily be different.

Also I prefer some of my "emotional" decisions : for example I often prefer to drive a scenic route rather than a souless modernised road; and in car parks I prefer to park a long way from its pedestrian exit, but no doubt a self-driving car would place me at near to it as possible as a "favour". SD cars will be programmed according to the assumptions of those who program them.

Why with a self-driving car would you even be in the car park? It'd drop you off where you like then go off alone to park in a cheap car park in the suburbs.

As for the route, I'm sure there will be an option to choose it if you wish, either by selecting the type of route (e.g. "avoid motorways") or using via points - satnavs already have those features.

well we know the idiots who program a lot of PC stuff that are just annoying. In Word, try copying part of a word. It will decide you want the whole word all the time. Imagine an annoying feature like that built into you car that you cant turn off.

To be fair to that, 99% of the time that *is* what people want, and there is a way not to do it (use shift and the arrow keys to select rather than the mouse).
 

krus_aragon

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well we know the idiots who program a lot of PC stuff that are just annoying. In Word, try copying part of a word. It will decide you want the whole word all the time. Imagine an annoying feature like that built into you car that you cant turn off.

clippy.jpg

It looks like you're trying to drive to work. Would you like me to turn the fog lights on? - Microsoft Paperclip
 

LOL The Irony

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clippy.jpg

It looks like you're trying to drive to work. Would you like me to turn the fog lights on? - Microsoft Paperclip
"So, Mr Irony, why did your car go into thermal runaway again?"
"I was just driving along and Clippy turned the fog lights on for no reason. I got out to see why and I was then caught up in a "drive-by shooting" and one of the bullets must have hit a battery. Such a shame..."
 

Lucan

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As for the route, I'm sure there will be an option to choose it if you wish, either by selecting the type of route (e.g. "avoid motorways") or using via points - satnavs already have those features.
Some do, some don't. Last time I bought a satnav I had a problem finding one that offered "waypoints" at a reasonable price. It is assumed that if you want waypoints you must be a delivery driver, dropping off stuff at multiple points during the day, and therefore the satnav has a "professional" price.
Why with a self-driving car would you even be in the car park? It'd drop you off where you like then go off alone to park in a cheap car park in the suburbs.
You only need to start thinking about that to realise how impractical it is, and it is in fact one of the main problems with SD cars. Many owners driving anywhere near city centres will not park them at or near their away destination - they will send them empty off home again, or somewhere else, and recall them when needed. That doubles that traffic at a stroke. Add to that the owners who were previously deterred from driving into cities by the parking problems (and hence using public transport - think London) will now do so - because those problems would be avoided, as you say.

Apart from that, it is difficult to find a parking place at any price even in the suburbs these days - and that is without the practice of sending empty SD cars to park there as well. I live in the sticks about 10 miles from my market town, and the only places to park there are the supermarkets (free but patrolled to catch non-shoppers), a couple of council car parks (the sort you propose to avoid, usually full anyway), the modest suburbs (full of yellow lines and/or parked cars already), the station (20 minute limit), and a few country lay-bys 3-4 miles out, with typical capacities of four cars at most.

What would happen with SD cars is that the owners will send them to look for a parking place with the result that hundreds of them, empty, will be driving in circles all day. After all - electricity for EVs is cheap/subsidised/free, isn't it?

The mass adoption of SD cars (and EVs) will need to come with a radical revision of road rules, laws, infrastructure, taxation, and a fundamental questioning of what roads are really for anyway. They will not be a simple slot-in replacement of driven cars. The change will be even more radical than that which occurred with motorised vehicles replacing the horse-drawn.
 

Ken H

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I find Waze generally makes sensible decisions. Of course a present-day satnav is designed as a driver aid, software designed to drive a vehicle on its own will necessarily be different.



Why with a self-driving car would you even be in the car park? It'd drop you off where you like then go off alone to park in a cheap car park in the suburbs.

As for the route, I'm sure there will be an option to choose it if you wish, either by selecting the type of route (e.g. "avoid motorways") or using via points - satnavs already have those features.



To be fair to that, 99% of the time that *is* what people want, and there is a way not to do it (use shift and the arrow keys to select rather than the mouse).
Some do, some don't. Last time I bought a satnav I had a problem finding one that offered "waypoints" at a reasonable price. It is assumed that if you want waypoints you must be a delivery driver, dropping off stuff at multiple points during the day, and therefore the satnav has a "professional" price.

You only need to start thinking about that to realise how impractical it is, and it is in fact one of the main problems with SD cars. Many owners driving anywhere near city centres will not park them at or near their away destination - they will send them empty off home again, or somewhere else, and recall them when needed. That doubles that traffic at a stroke. Add to that the owners who were previously deterred from driving into cities by the parking problems (and hence using public transport - think London) will now do so - because those problems would be avoided, as you say.

Apart from that, it is difficult to find a parking place at any price even in the suburbs these days - and that is without the practice of sending empty SD cars to park there as well. I live in the sticks about 10 miles from my market town, and the only places to park there are the supermarkets (free but patrolled to catch non-shoppers), a couple of council car parks (the sort you propose to avoid, usually full anyway), the modest suburbs (full of yellow lines and/or parked cars already), the station (20 minute limit), and a few country lay-bys 3-4 miles out, with typical capacities of four cars at most.

What would happen with SD cars is that the owners will send them to look for a parking place with the result that hundreds of them, empty, will be driving in circles all day. After all - electricity for EVs is cheap/subsidised/free, isn't it?

The mass adoption of SD cars (and EVs) will need to come with a radical revision of road rules, laws, infrastructure, taxation, and a fundamental questioning of what roads are really for anyway. They will not be a simple slot-in replacement of driven cars. The change will be even more radical than that which occurred with motorised vehicles replacing the horse-drawn.
will they really be allowed to drive round with no-body in them?
 

Lucan

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will they really be allowed to drive round with no-body in them?
Remains to be seen. I have often heard the supporters claimimg as an advantage the ability to send them to wait at car parks on city fringes, or home, until recalled; and that was Bletchlyite's suggestion. I think cities would grind to a halt if this were allowed; city traffic is at near standstill as it is.
 

Ken H

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Remains to be seen. I have often heard the supporters claimimg as an advantage the ability to send them to wait at car parks on city fringes, or home, until recalled; and that was Bletchlyite's suggestion. I think cities would grind to a halt if this were allowed; city traffic is at near standstill as it is.
replacement of public transport they aint.....
 

edwin_m

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Conceivably someone could create a SD-only car park which could be a multi-storey with clearances designed to the dimensions and turning circles of the cars themselvces rather than the space needed for people to access them and to park and manoeuvre in sub-optimal ways. They could even block each other in and co-operate to move out of the way if the blocked-in vehicle needed to depart. However, rather like that Ocado robot warehouse following similar principles, it would be "interesting" if one caught fire.
 

DavidGrain

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I thought that the original idea of SD cars was that they would be common user. You could just call one up like a taxi and it would take you where you wanted to go and you would just then leave it for someone else.

A few years ago there was a trial scheme in Birmingham of common user cars where you could pay a subscription and have an app on your phone where you could find a Smart car parked nearby which you could use and just leave it at the end of your journey. In the next road to where I used to live, I saw three of these cars one day. Obviously one of my neighbours was going out perhaps into the city centre in the evenings, using one of these cars to get home and they were just staying there until the owning company sent out drivers to collect them. Neadless to say this experiment did not last many months.
 

Lucan

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I thought that the original idea of SD cars was that they would be common user.
There have been many ideas. There is an unfortunate tendency for advocates of new ideas to pile in multiple unrelated new ideas at the same time. For example some early EVs were designed to fold like deck chairs (to reduce parking space), or were ridiculously tiny, or had deliberately hideous styling. Remember also Clive Sinclair's silly C5. It seems that some inventors cannot resist piling in quirks just to rub it in that this is "revolutionary", or "disruptive" as is now the hip word.

The trouble is that this puts most people off. Tesla had the better approach of (originally) making an EV that was largely conventional in other respects - but have since gone off the rails a bit with their half-asked SD tech.

There might be some shared SD car organisations but they would be niche. There is nothing inherent in SD cars that makes them specially suited to communal ownership, and unsupervised sharing never ends well. My uni tried shared bikes and they all vanished within the week. Car space is personal : imagine picking up a shared SD car in the morning to find last night's drunk user's vomit/condoms over the front seats. I'll buy my own thanks.
 

Ken H

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There have been many ideas. There is an unfortunate tendency for advocates of new ideas to pile in multiple unrelated new ideas at the same time. For example some early EVs were designed to fold like deck chairs (to reduce parking space), or were ridiculously tiny, or had deliberately hideous styling. Remember also Clive Sinclair's silly C5. It seems that some inventors cannot resist piling in quirks just to rub it in that this is "revolutionary", or "disruptive" as is now the hip word.

The trouble is that this puts most people off. Tesla had the better approach of (originally) making an EV that was largely conventional in other respects - but have since gone off the rails a bit with their half-asked SD tech.

There might be some shared SD car organisations but they would be niche. There is nothing inherent in SD cars that makes them specially suited to communal ownership, and unsupervised sharing never ends well. My uni tried shared bikes and they all vanished within the week. Car space is personal : imagine picking up a shared SD car in the morning to find last night's drunk user's vomit/condoms over the front seats. I'll buy my own thanks.
Your car is part of your personal space. I always feel a bit like an unwanted visitor in other peoples cars. And I always think passengers in my car will be assessing how clean my car is (or usually not!) This is why public transport will always struggle - people like existing in their metal bubble.
 

underbank

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Personally, I can't see driverless cars in my lifetime. I think what will be more useful is the technology being developed for driverless which could be fitted into driver-driven cars, such as the safety features (accident avoidance), cars talking to eachother, cars talking to traffic lights, cars talking to road-signs etc.
 

Bletchleyite

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Conceivably someone could create a SD-only car park which could be a multi-storey with clearances designed to the dimensions and turning circles of the cars themselvces rather than the space needed for people to access them and to park and manoeuvre in sub-optimal ways. They could even block each other in and co-operate to move out of the way if the blocked-in vehicle needed to depart. However, rather like that Ocado robot warehouse following similar principles, it would be "interesting" if one caught fire.

It was "interesting" enough when the human-driven-car multi-storey in Liverpool caught fire. There was basically nothing they could do with all that petrol, diesel and plastic going up.
 

VioletEclipse

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It was "interesting" enough when the human-driven-car multi-storey in Liverpool caught fire. There was basically nothing they could do with all that petrol, diesel and plastic going up.
Yup, IMO those are all things that cars don't need as much of. Petrol and diesel cars should really be history by now. Also modern cars don't need anywhere near the amount of plastic that they are built with.
 

Ken H

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Yup, IMO those are all things that cars don't need as much of. Petrol and diesel cars should really be history by now. Also modern cars don't need anywhere near the amount of plastic that they are built with.
and batteries dont blow up or catch fire?
 

VioletEclipse

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and batteries don't blow up or catch fire?
And that is another problem. Electric cars are also a fire risk in a case like that, but if they had a lot less plastic it wouldn't be as much of a problem.
Anyway I would say that the days of private car ownership are numbered, or at least they should be. It's not possible for the current level of private car ownership to be even relatively sustainable.
 

njamescouk

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electric cars = no engine no clutch no gearbox. lots and lots less to go wrong. lots less to maintain, so cheaper to run and longer lasting. internal combustion engine?
 
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