The inadequacies of LNER's electronic seat reservation signs

TUC · 22 Nov 2018

LNER has now joined dome other TOCs in moving over to electronic signs above seats to show reservations instead of paper tickets. There are several problems with it.

Firstly, it slows down boarding considerably as it is not possible to scan down the carriage and spot unreserved seats. Although Red/Amber/Green lights are used to show where a seat is reserved for part of all of a journey, these are not visible until one is very close to the seat. If the bulbs protruded outwards it would improve the situation.

Secondly, the screens used for the reservations are so small they cannot show where a seat has multiple reservations for different legs of a journey. When I boarded the train this morning, the seat I occupied showed 'reserved to Doncaster'. However, when the train got to Newark someone arrived to take the seat and I discovered the sign had changed to 'reserved to Kings Cross'. I moved to another seat which read 'reserved to Peterborough' but was unoccupied, only to find at Peterborough someone came for the seat and, yet again, it had changed to 'reserved to King's Cross'.

Just how are passengers meant to know which seats are available? This isn't like Cross Country's 10 minute reservations issue. LNER know at the start of the journey which seats are reserved but passengers on the train do not know which these are.

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ainsworth74 · 22 Nov 2018

Yes I'd agree with both of those points (did you try the seat finder via the wifi by the way? I thought it was excellent and quite accurate only a one false positive that I saw). The first is probably not easily fixed as it would require a modification to the unit but I would suggest its worthwhile as the ability to scan down a carriage is useful. The second seems like poor programming to me so should surely be fixable with a software update? It seems obvious that the unit should show 'reserved to [last station there is a reservation for]' rather than 'reserved to [end of current reservation]'. I suspect LNER might appreciate some feedback on this point as it's a new system?

cuccir · 22 Nov 2018

The limitations that TUC has identified are those which have appeared to me too. The issue with ainsworth's suggestion would be the potential confusion if a passenger with a reservation to Newark sees their seat marked 'reserved to Kings Cross'. Perhaps 'reserved to Newark & beyond' or some such, but not sure if there'd be space on the displays!

However, I agree with the rest of the above. The seat finder seems excellent, and presumably the electronic reservations will (1) save staff time and (2) may be more likely to have time to update where disruption results in short turn-arounds. These benefits do not probably outweigh what has been lost with the new reservations. Giving this as feedback is a useful suggestion though as it is a new system.

Silverdale · 22 Nov 2018

ainsworth74 said:
It seems obvious that the unit should show 'reserved to [last station there is a reservation for]' rather than 'reserved to [end of current reservation]'. I suspect LNER might appreciate some feedback on this point as it's a new system?

Showing 'reserved to ...' is rather less useful to a customer boarding without a seat reservation than 'reserved from [next station there is a reservation from]', which is what most TOCs who use them have set their indicators to show.

ainsworth74 · 22 Nov 2018

Silverdale said:
Showing 'reserved to ...' is rather less useful to a customer boarding without a seat reservation than 'reserved from [next station there is a reservation from]', which is what most TOCs who use them have set their indicators to show.

Oh yes that would be another option. Basically there's a couple of options but certainly the current version needs updating.

robbeech · 22 Nov 2018

Is the limitation with showing multiple screens the method used being that of e-ink is it? Thus they are relying on and and have planned on the design onely showing 1 screen where no current is drawn prolonging battery life to what the design spec considers acceptable? A scrolling screen stating more information is a completely different concept.

takno · 22 Nov 2018

robbeech said:
Is the limitation with showing multiple screens the method used being that of e-ink is it? Thus they are relying on and and have planned on the design onely showing 1 screen where no current is drawn prolonging battery life to what the design spec considers acceptable? A scrolling screen stating more information is a completely different concept.

Certainly any kind of scrolling or rotating would massively affect the battery life, which would add quite a lot to the maintenance overhead. A bigger screen with another row of data would have been useful, although the units would have protruded more, and there may not be a standard e-ink screen available of the right size.

I kind of get the impression that as these systems have consistently rolled out without this crucial information, the people developing them are just not doing any useful analysis of passengers needs. One reason for that of course could be that they are mostly talking to people who have reserved seats, since they are the people who bought online and the company has contact details for.

Metroman62 · 22 Nov 2018

Am on the 20:33 from Kings Cross to Leeds and my seat is reserved to Durham! My wife’s and others around us show Leeds. No coloured lights either. Gremlins at work. Shame the display can’t show seat number as well, it would save having to look elsewhere. Not good when you are visually impaired. But I guess retro fitting the system has limitations. And now someone else has a reservation for the same seat !

cuccir · 22 Nov 2018

I'm on the LNER, formerly VTEC, customer panel that Ipsos MORI run, and there's been no use of that to explore the design of electronic reservations.

SteveP29 · 23 Nov 2018

Would the display not be better saying 'Reserved Xxx to Xxx'

button_boxer · 23 Nov 2018

SteveP29 said:
Would the display not be better saying 'Reserved Xxx to Xxx'

That still wouldn’t tell you anything about future reservations of the same seat further down the line. If I don’t have a reservation and I get on at Grantham then I know an empty seat that is reserved only from Doncaster to Peterborough and not beyond is fair game as it’s effectively unreserved now, but one that is reserved Doncaster to Peterborough and Peterborough to London is not.

DarloRich · 23 Nov 2018

if we must have electronic displays can they PLEASE say reserved between X & Y rather than just reserved! The paper tickets show the information in a much moire helpful format!

And can we stop seat bookings after a train has departed? It is frustrating to find a free seat, sit in it then several hours later have someone turf you out because they booked the seat after the train had set off.

edwin_m · 23 Nov 2018

If they include sensors to detect seat occupation then it ought to be possible to prevent a seat being reserved after someone has sat in it (if LNER offered this facility). Although it wouldn't then be possible to sit down and reserve your own seat!

kje7812 · 23 Nov 2018

When travelling back from York last saturday, I found that the display for the seat I'd booked said 'available to Durham' and someone sat in it (well as far as she was aware it was free). I sat in an empty one nearby. After leaving Durham, it changed to 'reserved to Edinburgh', though no-one claimed it. I pointed it out to the Train manager who looked quite confused.

westv · 23 Nov 2018

The displays near me on this evening's Hull Executive haven't been updated and are still showing the previous journey reservations.

mirodo · 23 Nov 2018

No reservations at all showing on my Leeds - Kings Cross journey on Tuesday afternoon. The set was running in reverse formation which may have had an effect I guess?

westv · 23 Nov 2018

Just to add that the TM has not made any announcement about no reservations.

whhistle · 24 Nov 2018

It would be interesting to see how a TOC would cope without seat reservations.
They honestly seem to cause more problems than they're worth.

jon0844 · 24 Nov 2018

It is still very early days but the technology seems sound (especially the seat detection and the ability to see reservations via the web). It will take time to tweak I'm sure, and the info on the display could certainly be optimised - but while smaller text could show more detail (such as from and to stations, or even multiple reservations) it may then make it harder to read, and cause more delays as people walk along.

This is the sort of thing that will likely get tweaked over the coming weeks/months and I do recommend as others have that suggestions are made to LNER and the team behind it. I am sure they'll appreciate it.

As a first design, maybe future models could have larger e-ink displays that will solve that. I was recently at the new Xiaomi flagship store at Westfield and all their price labels are quite large colour e-ink displays. The screen is four times the size (double width/height) and obviously would mean a redesign to the system. The addition of colour (we're not talking 16 million colours here obviously) allows for highlighting information and would make it a lot more capable of conveying information.

That is something that may be possible on the second generation equipment.

Frankly, e-ink displays would make more sense on new trains rather than LCD or LED displays. Far easier on the eye, and I am surprised they're not used elsewhere on trains (they'd work particularly well at showing the destination of a train and stopping points on, or near, the doors on a train - akin to the paper inserted today). Prices are coming down all the time, and e-ink doesn't have to be implemented purely for power saving reasons.

inais20 · 24 Nov 2018

whhistle said:
It would be interesting to see how a TOC would cope without seat reservations.
They honestly seem to cause more problems than they're worth.

Unless you have some kind of disability or mobility issue in which case knowing you've got a seat reserved and exactly where on the train it is is essential.

_toommm_ · 24 Nov 2018

DarloRich said:
if we must have electronic displays can they PLEASE say reserved between X & Y rather than just reserved! The paper tickets show the information in a much moire helpful format!

And can we stop seat bookings after a train has departed? It is frustrating to find a free seat, sit in it then several hours later have someone turf you out because they booked the seat after the train had set off.

It says reserved to X, or available until Y. That is enough information really as I'm sure passengers don't care where it's reserved from as such, they just need to know if it's reserved, and if so, where until.

e.g. I'm travelling Kings X to Berwick today on an LNER HST, I've upgraded to first class so no seat reservation. The seat I'm in says 'Available until Haymarket' - that's all I need to know really.

DarloRich · 24 Nov 2018

_toommm_ said:
e.g. I'm travelling Kings X to Berwick today on an LNER HST, I've upgraded to first class so no seat reservation. The seat I'm in says 'Available until Haymarket' - that's all I need to know really.

that is fine - but the virgin west coast ones often just says reserved.

route101 · 24 Nov 2018

To view the seat map , do you need to be on the train using the wifi?

westv · 24 Nov 2018

route101 said:
To view the seat map , do you need to be on the train using the wifi?

Yes, I think you do.

route101 · 24 Nov 2018

westv said:
Yes, I think you do.

Thats the problem , once on the train you check .

Scotty · 25 Nov 2018

_toommm_ said:
they just need to know if it's reserved, and if so, where until.

What about if a train leaves Kings Cross, but it's only reserved from Peterborough? Passengers going KGX - PBO won't know about this under your info.

cactustwirly · 25 Nov 2018

Scotty said:
What about if a train leaves Kings Cross, but it's only reserved from Peterborough? Passengers going KGX - PBO won't know about this under your info.

Exactly, such information helps if your going to 'steal' a reserved seat (ie when they haven't bothered to turn up)

_toommm_ · 25 Nov 2018

Scotty said:
What about if a train leaves Kings Cross, but it's only reserved from Peterborough? Passengers going KGX - PBO won't know about this under your info.

Well yes, because the current LNER system says 'Available to Peterborough' then 'Reserved to York' etc.

whhistle · 26 Nov 2018

inais20 said:
Unless you have some kind of disability or mobility issue in which case knowing you've got a seat reserved and exactly where on the train it is is essential.

Not sure why you single out this group of customers though

Surely groups or families would be the obvious ones requring set reservations.

However, London Northwestern seem to operate just fine without seat reservations... including families and those with a disability or mobility issue.

robbeech · 26 Nov 2018

0837 Doncaster to King’s Cross (ex Leeds) was having issues yesterday with these. Announcement suggesting that it wasn’t the first time it had failed to upload.

Today the 1200 from King’s Cross has a good mixture of information. Some saying reserved to *** some saying Reserved from *** and mins saying Available to *** which is ideal as that’s where I’m getting off.

The inadequacies of LNER's electronic seat reservation signs

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