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158 exhaust fumes in saloon

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trebor79

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Second time in a month I'm in the rearmost carriage of a 158 and find myself breathing diesel exhaust fumes.
I deliberately sat in the front carriage to avoid the problem, but forgot about reversal at Ely. Sure enough I've got PM10s and NOx going up my nose.

I don't recall this issue in the past. Has something been changed on these units in recent years that causes exhaust fumes to get drawn into the ventilation?

It can't be healthy.
 
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scotraildriver

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It's most likely a smokey Webasto heater for the saloon heating rather than the exhaust. It happens on 158s now and again if it's not burning cleanly and produces black smoke. It's a bit exposed on the underframe and if it gets damaged this can happen. Did you alert the crew so they can book it for repair?
 
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trebor79

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No I didn't report it, but the crew can hardly have failed to notice the issue.
Strange it only seems to be apparent when the coach in question is at the back of the train (only 2 coaches on this service). I'd assumed it was exhaust fumes being drawn into the air conditioning system.
 
grumblingalong

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trebor79 said:
No I didn't report it, but the crew can hardly have failed to notice the issue.
Strange it only seems to be apparent when the coach in question is at the back of the train (only 2 coaches on this service). I'd assumed it was exhaust fumes being drawn into the air conditioning system.
Click to expand...

Don't get on the 37 set out of Norwich then I don't think you'd like that
 
Peter Mugridge

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When the 158s were brand new I, along with another person who is on this forum, took a ride on them from Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen Street. We got held for a platform in the tunnels approaching Queen Street, and after just two minutes the entire interior was filled with a very thick, very visible, choking exhaust haze. So thick we really could only just see the other end of the carriage.

A letter to the local management swiftly followed with the suggestion that the air conditioning should be shut down if the train was held in the tunnels, with a detailed explanation of why.

The stock reply that followed said that this could not be done "...as the air conditioning was vital to keeping the interior air clean and comfortable."

So two points here:

1) Exhaust ingress into 158s through the air conditioning would be nothing new.
2) Then, as now, nobody reads letters properly.
 
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There's a few of them that seem more prone to it than others. Aux heaters have been renewed so that problem is better than it was.
 
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Mitchell Hurd

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I bet this is one reason why all Class 158's running through Birmingham New Street have Perkins engines - hardly any pollution compared to Cummins powered 158's (400hp ones especially)!

I know this is off topic but regarding fumes in the saloon, that's why I'll prefer (for Standard Class on a XC 170 to and from Birmingham New Street and Stamford) to reserve a seat in Coach C near where the drivers cab is.

However Trouble is on a relatively long trip, I think I'd rather have a seat reserved near the toilet which is below the exhaust though. But then seats wouldn't be positioned there if fumes were not prone to coming in.

Also, when I next catch a XC HST in March / April 2019 from Birmingham New Street, it's difficult to decide whether to be given a seat in Coach A by the power car or Coach B at the ticket office (where I may need to book First Class) or choose a seat on XC's train layout plan.

Then again, the MTU engines in these HST's are low emission + there's no engines in the Mark 3's so should also be fine.
 
sprinterguy

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Mitchell Hurd said:
I bet this is one reason why all Class 158's running through Birmingham New Street have Perkins engines - hardly any pollution compared to Cummins powered 158's (400hp ones especially)!
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It's not an unfamiliar occurrence on Transport for Wales class 158s; I can certainly recall one journey from Birmingham to Chester with ATW where the ingress of fumes into the carriage was beginning to cause all of my group drowsiness and headaches. As noted by Peter Mugridge above it's something that has affected all the class 158s their whole lives.
grumblingalong said:
Honestly though if you don't like fumes I really wouldn't
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It's not really the same though as, despite the nostalgic ever present subtle diesel tang evident in the mark 2s that puts me in mind of seventies and eighties BR (Not saying that's a good thing, just that it's nostalgic for me), it's not being drawn into the ventilation system to the same extent and in my experience the mark 2s are better ventilated due to the droplight windows in the doors.
 
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Mitchell Hurd said:
I bet this is one reason why all Class 158's running through Birmingham New Street have Perkins engines - hardly any pollution compared to Cummins powered 158's (400hp ones especially)!.
Click to expand...

I'll call your bet and raise you a months wages that pollution is absolutely nothing to do with the fact that only Perkins 158s run into Birmingham New Street, I'll send you my account details over shortly :p

What a strange idea!
 
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Flyingsprinter

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If something like this happens video it on your phone and email it off to a red top newspaper.
This is the only way that a TOC will actual do anything about an issue.
 
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superkev

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Are we sure the fumes were from the engines and not the combustion heaters which if not maintained properly can smoke a lot?
I remember heritage dmu's heaters could be, shall we say interesting.
K
 
43096

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Flyingsprinter said:
If something like this happens video it on your phone and email it off to a red top newspaper.
This is the only way that a TOC will actual do anything about an issue.
Click to expand...
Usual immature social media response of doing "look at me" and creating a drama rather than doing what should be done and reporting it to the traincrew.
 
MCR247

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trebor79 said:
No I didn't report it, but the crew can hardly have failed to notice the issue.
Strange it only seems to be apparent when the coach in question is at the back of the train (only 2 coaches on this service). I'd assumed it was exhaust fumes being drawn into the air conditioning system.
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With all due respect, if you didn't report it to them how do you expect something to be done about it? What if the guard was in the rear cab and hence at the furthest point away from the exhaust?

You're sat there 'breathing in PM10s and NOx' but its not a big enough deal to report it to the crew (who have the most power to do something), but its a big enough deal to post about it to strangers on the internet?
 
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trebor79

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Wow, you're a friendly chap MCR!
The guard was up and down the train checking tickets between every stop. So he'd have noticed.

I merely wondered if there was some inherent defect with these units, given I've experienced the issue the past few times I've travelled.
I thought that's what internet forums were for, like minded people sharing an interest. My mistake, clearly.
 
MCR247

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I'm sorry my previous post came across sharp, I just can never understand why people don't report things at the time as sometimes customers complaints go further than traincrew/staff complaints (sadly)
 
43096

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MCR247 said:
I'm sorry my previous post came across sharp, I just can never understand why people don't report things at the time as sometimes customers complaints go further than traincrew/staff complaints (sadly)
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It has to be said that generally EMT (which I assume it was) are very good at picking up issues that are reported. I know of someone who heard a banging noise under an EMT HST and reported it. They had correspondence back from the HST Fleet Engineer saying that they’d had the vehicle ridden, found the fault and thanked them for reporting it.
 
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yorkie

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MCR247 said:
With all due respect, if you didn't report it to them how do you expect something to be done about it? What if the guard was in the rear cab and hence at the furthest point away from the exhaust?

You're sat there 'breathing in PM10s and NOx' but its not a big enough deal to report it to the crew (who have the most power to do something), but its a big enough deal to post about it to strangers on the internet?
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On the contrary, I find that complaints to train companies rarely result in any evidence of anything done, but posting on this forum usually gets good answers and can even get issues fixed.

The medium is irrelevant (the internet can be used to contact a train company or use this forum) and for some of us, the train crew are more likely to be "strangers" than respondents* on this forum (unless the train crew are also on this forum ;)) so I find your choice of words rather puzzling.

That said, I do agree it would have been worth mentioning to the train crew, though this isn't always possible or practicable (I don't tend to see any in passenger areas on most Northern/TPE evening trains I catch for example)

* I've met four in this thread
 
jamesontheroad

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I’m on the same route and same stock as the OP a couple of times a week, and I have also noticed the fumes in the passenger saloon quite often.

Regarding fault reporting, EMT are proactive on Twitter and tweeting them details of a fault plus the unit number is another way of getting something recorded for investigating later. I’ve done this about non functioning usb plugs on a 158, for instance.
 
grumblingalong

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greyman42 said:
Are you implying that 37s give of more than their fair share of exhaust fumes?
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Would I ever......:lol:

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MCR247

MCR247

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yorkie said:
On the contrary, I find that complaints to train companies rarely result in any evidence of anything done, but posting on this forum usually gets good answers and can even get issues fixed.

The medium is irrelevant (the internet can be used to contact a train company or use this forum) and for some of us, the train crew are more likely to be "strangers" than respondents* on this forum (unless the train crew are also on this forum ;)) so I find your choice of words rather puzzling.

That said, I do agree it would have been worth mentioning to the train crew, though this isn't always possible or practicable (I don't tend to see any in passenger areas on most Northern/TPE evening trains I catch for example)

* I've met four in this thread
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Well for the first point we'll have to agree to disagree. Whilst I can see what you mean for some things, for something like this I feel you have a greater chance of success letting the guard know (who can pass on details of the working, unit, carriage etc).

Maybe strangers wasn't the correct word to use, but my point was what is the average forum member going to be able to do about the problem? Probably less than someone who works at the relevant department at EMT.
 
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