West Highland Lines train crew diagrams

6Gman · 19 Nov 2018

I'm reminded of my time as Depot Editor for Pwllheli (*). Six Guards, five of them named Jones!

* - Just in case you thought I had a cushy number it wasn't my only depot! Nottingham was rather larger! (Actually, all my other depots were larger than Pwllheli.)

RailUK Forums

380gk · 21 Nov 2018

Tractor2018 said:
It WOULD be odd, if there was PNB facilities at Ardlui or Arrochar........but there isn't. THAT'S the world we operate in.

EDIT - The next place with facilities is Dalmuir. Which takes nearly twice as long to get to from Mallaig as your suggested journey from aberdeen to Glasgow. Journey time, plus PNB for a +10 hour shift, and booking on off time takes you over the maximum shift length.

That’s very true. BUT Wick go to Inverness and back, so wouldn’t be unheard of when rural depots have an 11 hour shift agreement (not 10 like you’re suggesting).

Therefore Mallaig COULD go to Dalmuir if the company wanted to, they just don’t.

380gk · 21 Nov 2018

scotraildriver said:
Aberdeen to Glasgow is 3 hours. Mallaig to Glasgow is 5hrs 10 mins. Including the required break thats almost a 12 hour shift. The maximum rostrered shift is 10 hours. Fort William crews could do it but there is no requirement.

Very true. Although Mallaig, Fort William, Oban, Wick, etc all have a maximum shift length of 11 hours, not 10. But you still wouldn’t get further south than Dalmuir I guess.

Tractor2018 · 21 Nov 2018

380gk said:
That’s very true. BUT Wick go to Inverness and back, so wouldn’t be unheard of when rural depots have an 11 hour shift agreement (not 10 like you’re suggesting).

Therefore Mallaig COULD go to Dalmuir if the company wanted to, they just don’t.

I didn't say it was a 10 hour max, somebody else did, I know it's 11. I said the PNB for +10 hour shift.

If you start 11 hour shifts you've decreased the days that can be worked and increased the compliment - I'm sure the MLG crews and company will thank you for each of them respectively!

There would also be the corresponding reduction to the OBN compliment would go down well too.

Next. If the 0603 or 1605 crews DO go to Dalmuir, what's their return workings? The 0603 crew would be over 11 hours on the 1221 ex GLQ, and the 1605 crew would be a 3 and half hour taxi home every day.

None of this appears to be advantageous to the company or staff.......never mind do-able in the first place.

EDIT: 11 hours would reduce the working days per week, as although that's agreed, so is the annual hours, but more importantly the average weekly hours of 36 over the course of the roster cycle.

380gk · 21 Nov 2018

Tractor2018 said:
I'm only pointing this out to highlight the absurdity of comparing GLQ-MLG to GLQ--ABD (I know you're aware! But it seems not everyone is. lol), so please excuse the pedantry. Aberdeen to Glasgow is, on average, 2.40ish and Queen Street to Mallaig is 5.20ish. So double.

Tractor2018 said:
I didn't say it was a 10 hour max, somebody else did, I know it's 11. I said the PNB for +10 hour shift.

If you start 11 hour shifts you've decreased the days that can be worked and increased the compliment - I'm sure the MLG crews and company will thank you for each of them respectively!

There would also be the corresponding reduction to the OBN compliment would go down well too.

Next. If the 0603 or 1605 crews DO go to Dalmuir, what's their return workings? The 0603 crew would be over 11 hours on the 1221 ex GLQ, and the 1605 crew would be a 3 and half hour taxi home every day.

None of this appears to be advantageous to the company or staff.......never mind do-able in the first place.

Agreed - was merely highlighting in my OP that these anomalies exist everywhere - including on the WHL which seem silly on the face of it, but have operational or logistical reasons for it as you have highlighted.

XDM · 21 Nov 2018

380gk said:
Agreed - was merely highlighting in my OP that these anomalies exist everywhere - including on the WHL which seem silly on the face of it, but have operational or logistical reasons for it as you have highlighted.

Wick to Inverness continuous is definitely worked by Wick drivers.
I am told it is an 11 hour shift including the PNB.
The reward, or incentive, for working it are very short duties the rest of the week.
Hence it was agreed by local ASLEF when the previous arrangement of relief half way along was terminated for some rosters.

I guess this 11 hour duty, with a huge component of quite tiring driving, open level crossings, very variable speeds, unique signalling, request station stops, gloomy northern winter light, is, by far, the longest on U.K. Railways.

Not all drivers are greedy workshy individuals!

tynesider · 21 Nov 2018

Apropos the Guard who used to work the late afternoon Fort William - Malliag, return, then sleeper to Rannoch and pass back -
Does this job now simply do one round trip Fort William - Mallaig? What is the minimum turn length up there?

HughT · 22 Nov 2018

Whilst this discussion was under way last week, services in the FW area were having a bad time. A number of cancellations - for what RTT called "staff issues", but which I was told by a ScotRail staffer was sickness (with no relief available, even with a decent amount of notice). And then last Thursday the front end of a Glasgow-FW service struck a couple of stags. Which meant that Friday's 0830 to Mallaig - and return - were cancelled, although the unit was able to make the 1035 southbound journey from FW. Sorry, don't have any more detail - this was all relayed to me by staff. The driver of the Shiel Buses replacement said they got a lot of business out of SR!

westcoaster · 22 Nov 2018

Looking at Malaig mon-fri i would say it looks like
Crew 1 0500-1340 ish
Prep unit
0603 to fort william, pnb
0830 from fort William
1010 to fort william
1213 from fort william

Crew 2
1540- 0000

1605 to crianlarich, pnb
2020 to mallaig. Shut unit down.

adrock1976 · 22 Nov 2018

HughT said:
Whilst this discussion was under way last week, services in the FW area were having a bad time. A number of cancellations - for what RTT called "staff issues", but which I was told by a ScotRail staffer was sickness (with no relief available, even with a decent amount of notice). And then last Thursday the front end of a Glasgow-FW service struck a couple of stags. Which meant that Friday's 0830 to Mallaig - and return - were cancelled, although the unit was able to make the 1035 southbound journey from FW. Sorry, don't have any more detail - this was all relayed to me by staff. The driver of the Shiel Buses replacement said they got a lot of business out of SR!

Regarding the rail replacement buses being operated by Shiel Buses, did they convey any passengers who had a dog with them would you know?

The reason I ask is that they seem to be the only bus operator between Fort William and Mallaig on normal scheduled services (which seem to be coaches rather than normal buses), and according to their website, they do not convey dogs if they do not fit in a carrier.

XDM · 23 Nov 2018

An old BR manager, now in his eighties, told me this story.
Someone at the British Rail board HQ in London looked at the statistics & discovered that the Fort William(it may have been Mallaig) drivers depot was unique among all the driver establishments in Britain.
No driver was EVER sick.

They were about to congratulate the depot manager & the six drivers when a local manager explained the reason.

The spare man( spare to cover for sickness) whoever he was, every day at Mallaig, was crew for a local fishing boat. It was lucrative for the Mallaig drivers. So no one went ill, otherwise their boat would not go out.
I imagine if someone was seriously ill & could not come in to drive, the others would secretly work differently & do extra hours to make sure the work was covered. The depot manager was said to be in on the operation.
It was stopped when the high ups discovered it & the sickness rate at the depot immediately reached the same level as throughout BR.

The bosses were rather amused not angry - although they may have embroided the story. But BR was different from now!

Sulzer023 · 1 Dec 2018

XDM said:
Wick to Inverness continuous is definitely worked by Wick drivers.
I am told it is an 11 hour shift including the PNB.
The reward, or incentive, for working it are very short duties the rest of the week.
Hence it was agreed by local ASLEF when the previous arrangement of relief half way along was terminated for some rosters.

I guess this 11 hour duty, with a huge component of quite tiring driving, open level crossings, very variable speeds, unique signalling, request station stops, gloomy northern winter light, is, by far, the longest on U.K. Railways.

Not all drivers are greedy workshy individuals!

I'm

XDM said:
Wick to Inverness continuous is definitely worked by Wick drivers.
I am told it is an 11 hour shift including the PNB.
The reward, or incentive, for working it are very short duties the rest of the week.
Hence it was agreed by local ASLEF when the previous arrangement of relief half way along was terminated for some rosters.

I guess this 11 hour duty, with a huge component of quite tiring driving, open level crossings, very variable speeds, unique signalling, request station stops, gloomy northern winter light, is, by far, the longest on U.K. Railways.

Not all drivers are greedy workshy individuals!

Does this mean Inverness drivers do a round trip to Wick to balance this?

Esker-pades · 1 Dec 2018

Sulzer023 said:
I'm

Does this mean Inverness drivers do a round trip to Wick to balance this?

Yes. The 10:41 from Inverness to Wick and the 16:00 return is Inverness worked throughout. The 07:00 ex-Inverness is worked to Lairg where crews swap with the 06:18 ex-Wick (I think).

Highlandspring · 1 Dec 2018

XDM said:
The spare man( spare to cover for sickness) whoever he was, every day at Mallaig, was crew for a local fishing boat. It was lucrative for the Mallaig drivers. So no one went ill, otherwise their boat would not go out.

You’ve sort of half got the bones of the real story but it was Wick, not Mallaig.

Sulzer023 · 2 Dec 2018

Not sure if this should be a new thread as subject now more Far North. FelixtheCat has clarified the Inverness - Wick driver diagrams. However, in the timetable there are 2 late trains terminating at Tain and early trains from Lairg and Tain heading south - how are these covered?

Chrism20 · 2 Dec 2018

Sulzer023 said:
Not sure if this should be a new thread as subject now more Far North. FelixtheCat has clarified the Inverness - Wick driver diagrams. However, in the timetable there are 2 late trains terminating at Tain and early trains from Lairg and Tain heading south - how are these covered?

The rolling stock is ECS from Inverness for the morning runs if RTT is correct.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G93525/2018/12/03/advanced

The late ones return in passenger service. 2221 to Inverness and 0048 to Muir of Ord the ECS to Inverness from there.

I think they are all Inverness crews.

Esker-pades · 2 Dec 2018

Chrism20 said:
The rolling stock is ECS from Inverness for the morning runs if RTT is correct.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G93525/2018/12/03/advanced

The late ones return in passenger service. 2221 to Inverness and 0048 to Muir of Ord the ECS to Inverness from there.

I think they are all Inverness crews.

That's correct.
Only 3 trains are held overnight away from Inverness. 1 is held at Kyle for the ~06:15 service and 2 at Wick for the 06:18 and 08:02 services.

HughT · 5 Dec 2018

adrock1976 said:
Regarding the rail replacement buses being operated by Shiel Buses, did they convey any passengers who had a dog with them would you know?

The reason I ask is that they seem to be the only bus operator between Fort William and Mallaig on normal scheduled services (which seem to be coaches rather than normal buses), and according to their website, they do not convey dogs if they do not fit in a carrier.

Aspologies for the tardy reply! No, there was nobody onboard with a dog (or attempting to board with one). Shiel seem to have the ScotRail contract in that part of the world - indeed, I suspect they're now the second-largest operator there, behind Stagecoach.

Baxenden Bank · 5 Dec 2018

HughT said:
Aspologies for the tardy reply! No, there was nobody onboard with a dog (or attempting to board with one). Shiel seem to have the ScotRail contract in that part of the world - indeed, I suspect they're now the second-largest operator there, behind Stagecoach.

As far as Fort William and Mallaig are concerned, Shiel are the ONLY operator. Stagecoach closed down their Fort William depot and pulled out earlier this year. Shiel do the school buses, the local buses and some of the Citylink diagrams. I suppose Stagecoach could send a coach down from Portree on the ferry to Mallaig if the price was right.
West Coast Motors are the next nearest operator - in Oban. I don't know if they do rail replacement work.

InOban · 5 Dec 2018

WCM don't. RRBs from Oban are often provided by Shiel (who actually work quite closely with WCM).

Garmoran · 5 Dec 2018

adrock1976 said:
Regarding the rail replacement buses being operated by Shiel Buses, did they convey any passengers who had a dog with them would you know?

The reason I ask is that they seem to be the only bus operator between Fort William and Mallaig on normal scheduled services (which seem to be coaches rather than normal buses), and according to their website, they do not convey dogs if they do not fit in a carrier.

You are correct that Shiel Buses do not normally carry dogs.
However, the 1010 ex-Mallaig Rail Replacement Bus recently accepted a large husky dog boarding at Morar without any discussion. It's possible that their contract with Scotrail requires this.

alangla · 5 Dec 2018

InOban said:
WCM don't. RRBs from Oban are often provided by Shiel (who actually work quite closely with WCM).

Last time I was in that part of the world, the WHL was closed on the day I was heading home & Citylink was cheaper than the ScotRail/RRB fare. Shiel coach arrived from Portree into Fort William & a WCM driver took over for the run to Glasgow. Think other runs were operated by WCM coaches, presumably with Shiel drivers beyond Fort William

156478 · 5 Dec 2018

Sulzer023 said:
Not sure if this should be a new thread as subject now more Far North. FelixtheCat has clarified the Inverness - Wick driver diagrams. However, in the timetable there are 2 late trains terminating at Tain and early trains from Lairg and Tain heading south - how are these covered?

Short workings from Inverness are generally always Inverness Crewed, as Wick and Kyle's shifts are long enough with a run to and from Inverness. It would be very difficult to diagram a short working in their diagrams considering Wick has the 11 hour out and back beast on the backshift.
The earlies are Inverness Crew, 4-car Class 158 empty coaches to Lairg which drops off a set and traincrew at Ardgay.

West Highland Lines train crew diagrams

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