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Arriva Rail North DOO

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yorksrob

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Because the world has changed. We're now competing in a global economy. We're in a technological revolution. It's cheaper to make stuff in China/Japan and ship it here. Western economies in general are having to adapt to a new world where we're not the richest/wealthiest countries anymore - the world's wealth is moving to the previously underdeveloped countries. That means an inevitable reduction in living standards in the West. The UK is already living well beyond its means and having to borrow huge sums of money to maintain our illusion of wealth. We simply can't afford to stand still and carry on doing things the way they were always done. We have to change and adapt. After all it's a mere accident of birth that we're all here in the UK and enjoying a relatively good standard of living compared with many millions on the planet - as globalisation continues, we have to accept that living standards of people in underdeveloped countries will rise and ours will fall as a consequence. It's all now about how we adapt to this brave new world and those trying desperately to cling to outdated working practices and a sense of self entitlement are divorced from reality. Unless you want protectionism, closed borders, etc., the genie is out of the bottle and adaptations are necessary which some people won't like. I don't agree "it benefits no one" - we are all enjoying much cheaper "stuff" due to cheap foreign labour, cheap fuel, etc - if we didn't have the race to the bottom and globalisation, yes, we may have more well paid jobs, but the price of "stuff" would be an awful lot higher, meaning we'd have less money or less stuff. You can't just pick on things in isolation when you're a small cog in the big wheel of globalisation and international trade.

I never agreed with getting rid of protectionism in the first place. The French have the right idea.
 
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pemma

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Is that good enough to take out 35 year mortgage on? An agency job generally isn't enough. A permanent job is needed to take out a lot of finance.

Like I said already there's no such thing as a permanent job. Your contract of employment will state under what terms either party can terminate it even if there's no fixed end date. The only consolation is that if you've held the job for a long time you'll be given months of notice or pay in lieu of notice plus redundancy pay.
 

Muttley

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Because the world has changed. We're now competing in a global economy. We're in a technological revolution. It's cheaper to make stuff in China/Japan and ship it here. Western economies in general are having to adapt to a new world where we're not the richest/wealthiest countries anymore - the world's wealth is moving to the previously underdeveloped countries. That means an inevitable reduction in living standards in the West. The UK is already living well beyond its means and having to borrow huge sums of money to maintain our illusion of wealth. We simply can't afford to stand still and carry on doing things the way they were always done. We have to change and adapt. After all it's a mere accident of birth that we're all here in the UK and enjoying a relatively good standard of living compared with many millions on the planet - as globalisation continues, we have to accept that living standards of people in underdeveloped countries will rise and ours will fall as a consequence. It's all now about how we adapt to this brave new world and those trying desperately to cling to outdated working practices and a sense of self entitlement are divorced from reality. Unless you want protectionism, closed borders, etc., the genie is out of the bottle and adaptations are necessary which some people won't like. I don't agree "it benefits no one" - we are all enjoying much cheaper "stuff" due to cheap foreign labour, cheap fuel, etc - if we didn't have the race to the bottom and globalisation, yes, we may have more well paid jobs, but the price of "stuff" would be an awful lot higher, meaning we'd have less money or less stuff. You can't just pick on things in isolation when you're a small cog in the big wheel of globalisation and international trade.
I tell you what then.
Let's go after the likes of Sir Phillip Green with his 3 yachts, as opposed to the guards who are on/around the average wage.
 

pemma

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Civil servants, firemen, police officers, doctors, in fact any clinical part of the NHS, soldiers sailors and airmen.

None have been made redundant. Some may of been offered to go and accepted but they are examples.

Really? My dad was a civil servant and he was forced in to early retirement (that was before the law changed and it was seen as appropriate to force the older employees in to retirement opposed to making younger employees redundant.) He did look at other employment options but no-one wanted someone approaching retirement age who had spent around 40 years in the same job - a job which was no longer needed.

While more recently my local emergency services have made people redundant as part of restructuring intended to save money. The fire station near me used to be a full time one, now it's an on-call only.
 

pemma

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Mick Cash would be proud of the second sentence. I just looked at the 2017 accounts of DB (UK) Investments, which lots of Arriva businesses all over Europe, and made a loss of around 77m before it got 44m from the whole Arriva Group in the UK, so still in a loss situation. Doesn't look as if much money got to Deutsche Bahn AB does it?

Worth remembering Arriva don't just run trains but it's franchised rail operations that they have to accept a package for - if they want to run Manchester to Liverpool and Manchester to Blackpool, they also have to accept running the token Denton line and Ellesmere Port branch services. With buses they can register any service they want and withdraw or change it at 8 weeks notice.
 

superkev

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Worth remembering Arriva don't just run trains but it's franchised rail operations that they have to accept a package for - if they want to run Manchester to Liverpool and Manchester to Blackpool, they also have to accept running the token Denton line and Ellesmere Port branch services. With buses they can register any service they want and withdraw or change it at 8 weeks notice.
As Alan Williams in Modern Railways pointed out Arrive buses probably make extra money on strike days.
Also, poor response to my question on here as to if non uk railways have guards or despatchers.
K
 

Eccles1983

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Really? My dad was a civil servant and he was forced in to early retirement (that was before the law changed and it was seen as appropriate to force the older employees in to retirement opposed to making younger employees redundant.) He did look at other employment options but no-one wanted someone approaching retirement age who had spent around 40 years in the same job - a job which was no longer needed.

While more recently my local emergency services have made people redundant as part of restructuring intended to save money. The fire station near me used to be a full time one, now it's an on-call only.


But the firemen were not made redundant. They were moved to a new station.

Police officers aren't made redundant. Same with the armed forces and NHS clinical staff.

The civil service - I accept that they do, but it's seen as a secure job by most.
 

B&I

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I tell you what then.
Let's go after the likes of Sir Phillip Green with his 3 yachts, as opposed to the guards who are on/around the average wage.


Quite. Funny how this inevitable decline in living standards doesn-/ seem to be affecting the richest members of our society, all of whom seem to be getting wealthier. Could it be there's a bit of a con on somewhere ?
 

B&I

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Because the world has changed. We're now competing in a global economy. We're in a technological revolution. It's cheaper to make stuff in China/Japan and ship it here. Western economies in general are having to adapt to a new world where we're not the richest/wealthiest countries anymore - the world's wealth is moving to the previously underdeveloped countries. That means an inevitable reduction in living standards in the West. The UK is already living well beyond its means and having to borrow huge sums of money to maintain our illusion of wealth. We simply can't afford to stand still and carry on doing things the way they were always done. We have to change and adapt. After all it's a mere accident of birth that we're all here in the UK and enjoying a relatively good standard of living compared with many millions on the planet - as globalisation continues, we have to accept that living standards of people in underdeveloped countries will rise and ours will fall as a consequence. It's all now about how we adapt to this brave new world and those trying desperately to cling to outdated working practices and a sense of self entitlement are divorced from reality. Unless you want protectionism, closed borders, etc., the genie is out of the bottle and adaptations are necessary which some people won't like. I don't agree "it benefits no one" - we are all enjoying much cheaper "stuff" due to cheap foreign labour, cheap fuel, etc - if we didn't have the race to the bottom and globalisation, yes, we may have more well paid jobs, but the price of "stuff" would be an awful lot higher, meaning we'd have less money or less stuff. You can't just pick on things in isolation when you're a small cog in the big wheel of globalisation and international trade.


What 'stuff' ? Endless unnecessary gadgets which break or become obsolete within about 2 years ? Globalisation isn't making the 'stuff' we need to live, in particular housing, any cheaper. I'd happily return to a world where tellies cost more, but more people could afford houses to put them in, and more people could be sure of having jobs which would pay for them. This process isn't inevitable. It has been chosen for us by the people who have made billions from it
 

Tomnick

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We might all recognise that a DOO+OBS arrangement may well be the best way forward...
I still don’t understand what significant benefits DOO+OBS offers over conventional operation with a guard. It all seems to come down to a slight increase in service reliability (if there’s an “exceptional circumstances” clause) and removing the need for route learning, neither of which justify a dispute on this scale.
 

B&I

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The thing that will do most for the employees and the RMT and everyone else is a railway on which people want to travel, well run, modern, efficient. It is why BMC isn't making cars here any more but Toyota is and offering better T&C than BMC ever did.

The current situation is just damaging the whole system and whilst it might not have been created by the staff side it was managed by them in a very precipitate way. This attempt to secure jobs risks doing just the opposite. Ultimately it will be bad for the staff side across the railway, all grades, all crafts.


This is true, but the strikes are not the only factor preventing an efficient railway developing which will attract passengers
 

B&I

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I think that nobody wants people to lose their jobs, but in my opinion, Mr Cash and some of his flock are going the right way to ensure that jobs will be destroyed. How will they manage if DfT insists that, in addition to new trains, all existing stock is to be converted to DOO ? Yes, that would be expensive, but it is an option that should never be ruled out.... (and there will soon be a pool of surplus trains that could be converted without disrupting normal services,)


That is possible, although it would about sum this government up if, having spent damn all squared on the railways up here, they suddenly found a magic money tree to pay for new / converted stock just to win a battle with a trade union
 

Meerkat

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So to summarise....
This dispute will go on until enough DCO trains are available that the TOC can make all striking guards redundant and offer OBS jobs, assuming ASLEF do a a deal??
 

pemma

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So to summarise....
This dispute will go on until enough DCO trains are available that the TOC can make all striking guards redundant and offer OBS jobs, assuming ASLEF do a a deal??

Apart from the TOC have offered to keep all guards in employment on the guard grade with annual pay reviews until the end of the franchise, so what you describe will only happen if the RMT reject an offer of continued employment because they refuse to move away from their current position of wanting guards closing doors and dispatching all trains.
 

Muttley

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247
So to summarise....
This dispute will go on until enough DCO trains are available that the TOC can make all striking guards redundant and offer OBS jobs, assuming ASLEF do a a deal??
That's one he'll of an assumption !
 

Carlisle

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I tell you what then.
Let's go after the likes of Sir Phillip Green with his 3 yachts, as opposed to the guards who are on/around the average wage.
Even Sir Philip will have no doubt had to accept changes to his role in order to ascend that greasy pole to the top
 

PR1Berske

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So to summarise....
This dispute will go on until enough DCO trains are available that the TOC can make all striking guards redundant and offer OBS jobs, assuming ASLEF do a a deal??
The dispute will go on. DCO trains are being introduced.

The TOC has not indicated there will be redundancies, indeed quite the opposite.
 

Tomnick

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The dispute will go on. DCO trains are being introduced.

The TOC has not indicated there will be redundancies, indeed quite the opposite.
Well, trains that are capable of being operated either as DOO or with a guard are being introduced. It’s the DfT that require “DCO”, not the trains.
 

Gems

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Even Sir Philip will have no doubt had to accept changes to his role in order to ascend that greasy pole to the top
Yes he accepted he had to rob the BHS pensions scheme. If he's a 'sir' I'm a mermaid.
 

pemma

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Reportedly RMT members are handing out sticks of rock with "KEEP THE GUARD ON THE TRAIN" stickers on them. They'll need to give passengers more than a stick of rock to make up for all the lost pay/jobs.
 

Gems

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Reportedly RMT members are handing out sticks of rock with "KEEP THE GUARD ON THE TRAIN" stickers on them. They'll need to give passengers more than a stick of rock to make up for all the lost pay/jobs.
Free rock, Oh lovely. Where is this happening? Has to be Blackpool North.
 

Gems

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The dispute will go on. DCO trains are being introduced.

The TOC has not indicated there will be redundancies, indeed quite the opposite.
No, it will go on long after DCO capable trains are introduced. Because the guards operating non DCO stock will pursue it to the bitter end. This strike is entrenched. Nobody likes the government, nobody likes Arrive, and most are happy not to cover Saturday late shifts. There is no end in sight, lets stop deluding ourselves.
 

Gems

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Is there anyone who thinks anything but that we are in this for the long haul?
Some on here do. Some seem to think introducing DCO capable stock will cause it to dissolve. It will just make the situation even more toxic. There is only one thing that will break this action other than a settlement, that is circumstances from within.
 

74A

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No, it will go on long after DCO capable trains are introduced. Because the guards operating non DCO stock will pursue it to the bitter end. This strike is entrenched. Nobody likes the government, nobody likes Arrive, and most are happy not to cover Saturday late shifts. There is no end in sight, lets stop deluding ourselves.

So probably time for the company to sack all the guards and start again
 

Gems

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So probably time for the company to sack all the guards and start again
Once again, a vivid imagination built on a lack of knowledge. I know in your mind I'm sure you would love to believe that might happen, the thought must be a bit like having a comforter against a nasty world where others don't share your viewpoint. But it has no basis in reality.

Myself if I wanted to gain a understanding of what drives something, I would listen to what those doing the driving and being driven say.
 

Robertj21a

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No, it will go on long after DCO capable trains are introduced. Because the guards operating non DCO stock will pursue it to the bitter end. This strike is entrenched. Nobody likes the government, nobody likes Arrive, and most are happy not to cover Saturday late shifts. There is no end in sight, lets stop deluding ourselves.

On the contrary, quite a lot of people like the government and even Arriva !!
I accept that many may not agree with how the government/DfT/Arriva - or RMT - have handled this dispute but it will, eventually, be resolved, possibly not until the franchise changes.
 

Gems

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On the contrary, quite a lot of people like the government and even Arriva !!
I accept that many may not agree with how the government/DfT/Arriva - or RMT - have handled this dispute but it will, eventually, be resolved, possibly not until the franchise changes.
2025 it is then. I'll be looking at retirement by then. Yippee.
 
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