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Arriva Rail North DOO

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Tomnick

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The reality is that the government were willing to suffer hugely disruptive strikes in their Home Counties heartlands, then pay for a huge driver deal, to beat the RMT on Southern.
So how far do you think they will go in Northern Labour heartlands, especially considering the Corbyn angle - “This Conservative government is trying to enable massive investment in Northern rail services, but has been frustrated by Corbyn’s Trot friends in the unions. We are forced to cancel some investment that is now uneconomic and will spend it on train services elsewhere”

I exaggerate for effect, but I can only see one ‘winner’ (well two when ASLEF extract a tidy payrise)
And it seems that really is what it’s all about - beating the RMT. Most of the stated objectives - shorter dwell times and “more visible” customer service could be easily and peacefully achieved with some sensible adjustments to the current grade that’d easily satisfy the RMT’s red lines.
 
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Carlisle

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This is true, but the strikes are not the only factor preventing an efficient railway developing which will attract passengers
Which amounts to RMTs. longstanding position anyway, ie no real concern how many platform, cleaning, catering or Signalling grades are ultimately made redundant providing the guards grade is preserved In aspic.
 
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Robertj21a

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Remember a certain Tory MP whinging to the press about drivers working to rule and that it ‘wasn’t fair’. You need morale and loyalty to get the most out of your staff. Neither of which you seem to have any grasp over. Your idea of management is to rule with an iron fist.

Not at all. Funnily enough, anyone who knows me would be amazed to see your comments !.
I agree with you again (must stop keep doing this !!) that loyalty, good morale, goodwill - and CO-OPERATION are very important indeed if you are trying to run a successful company. Perhaps you should mention this when you have your next RMT meeting.
 

Ianigsy

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Last night's Look North carried a report on the effect of the strikes on the independent traders in Hebden Bridge, who rely on the train to bring visitors from Leeds and Manchester.
 

Robertj21a

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And it seems that really is what it’s all about - beating the RMT. Most of the stated objectives - shorter dwell times and “more visible” customer service could be easily and peacefully achieved with some sensible adjustments to the current grade that’d easily satisfy the RMT’s red lines.


I can understand why many believe it's all being done to break the RMT. You have to ask yourself why that should be (if indeed true).
As many have said on here, the RMT is viewed as a dinosaur, totally out of touch with the real world and yet trying to stifle progress wherever they can. I have yet to hear any sensible argument for why they called strikes before any discussions had taken place and, consequently, I have some sympathy with anyone who recognises that things need to change.
It's all so stupid, the RMT hardly needs to move at all - but they don't have the intelligence to see that.
 

DaveB10780

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I can understand why many believe it's all being done to break the RMT. You have to ask yourself why that should be (if indeed true).
As many have said on here, the RMT is viewed as a dinosaur, totally out of touch with the real world and yet trying to stifle progress wherever they can. I have yet to hear any sensible argument for why they called strikes before any discussions had taken place and, consequently, I have some sympathy with anyone who recognises that things need to change.
It's all so stupid, the RMT hardly needs to move at all - but they don't have the intelligence to see that.
Spot on, that is why the RMT leaders are way off the mark and just don't seem to understand or care what they are doing to loads of ordinary folk, including their members.
 

scrapy

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Which amounts to RMTs. current position anyway, ie not especially concerned how many platform, cleaning, catering or Signalling grades are made redundant providing the guards grade is preserved In aspic.
How many platform, cleaning, catering and signalling staff are being made redundant? This thread is about the Northern dispute. Northern don't have catering or signalling staff. The RMT we're instrumental at improving the conditions and pay of on train cleaners bringing them in house under Abellio and since then in percentage terms they have had bigger pay rises than drivers. I am not aware of any platform staff redundancies at Northern either under Serco Abellio or Arriva.
 

furnessvale

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I hope they keep a supply for all the other days there isn't a strike.
You appear to have missed my attempt at humour. In another thread there is much talk of passengers being unable to board trains at Blackpool North, even when guards are not on strike!
 

Tomnick

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Which amounts to RMTs. longstanding position anyway, ie no real concern how many platform, cleaning, catering or Signalling grades are ultimately made redundant providing the guards grade is preserved In aspic.
The RMT has engaged constructively with Network Rail and its predecessors over many years to make sure that everyone in the signalling grade who wants a job can have a job, that a decent redundancy package is on offer for those who want to stay and that the whole process is managed fairly - so there’s been a commitment to no compulsory redundancies for many years now, and you’re a long way off the mark with your comments.
I can understand why many believe it's all being done to break the RMT. You have to ask yourself why that should be (if indeed true).
As many have said on here, the RMT is viewed as a dinosaur, totally out of touch with the real world and yet trying to stifle progress wherever they can. I have yet to hear any sensible argument for why they called strikes before any discussions had taken place and, consequently, I have some sympathy with anyone who recognises that things need to change.
It's all so stupid, the RMT hardly needs to move at all - but they don't have the intelligence to see that.
I understand that they’ve made their move early because they feel that they left it too late to make a difference on Southern. As above, my experience is that they’ve worked very constructively in the signalling grades. There’s no need for a dispute at all here, yet the DfT seem to have gone out of their way to provoke one (either that, or they’re not committed to the OBS role in the long term - I still don’t understand the benefit otherwise!).
 

B&I

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The language of some hard right wingers on here is akin to that of Joseph Stalin sadly. Shame our country is so bitterly divided at the moment. This whole state of affairs is similar to the mess the whole country is in.


The problem is that only a small minority a tually believe that Thatcherite drivel. We end up with Tory governments out of fear and ignorance about any alternative
 

ivanhoe

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I don't work in the industry but I can see that neither side will capitulate. What is the common ground to bring this to an end?
Saturday strikes invariably lead to issues on Sunday . It just appears to me that once passengers are lost because of the strikes, it will be hard to get them all back. There are always alternatives to taking the train for most people in Northern Rail land . Surely there's a way forward which would allow both sides to save face.
 

rishtonlad

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I live in East Lancashire and there was something in the local news a bit back that visitor numbers to Blackpool have dropped quiet I bit and it was being put down to a mixture of the timetable problems in and May and the strikes.
 

Robertj21a

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Conclusive proof that you know nothing of the north of England


??? - who mentioned the north ?

If you would like to re-read that earlier comment it had a simple statement ' Nobody likes the government, nobody likes Arriva......'
 

Robertj21a

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The problem is that only a small minority a tually believe that Thatcherite drivel. We end up with Tory governments out of fear and ignorance about any alternative


OK I'll bite, even if it's off-topic really........

Do you honestly believe what you've written, or are you just being silly ?
 

PR1Berske

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I don't work in the industry but I can see that neither side will capitulate. What is the common ground to bring this to an end?
Saturday strikes invariably lead to issues on Sunday . It just appears to me that once passengers are lost because of the strikes, it will be hard to get them all back. There are always alternatives to taking the train for most people in Northern Rail land . Surely there's a way forward which would allow both sides to save face.
A point so many pro-strikes people on here swerve or ignore. Passengers with no choice but to use the trains become hardy users of buses or alternative TOCs. The walk up and travel market has been ripped to shreds by the RMT action, and if they choose to drive or forget about travelling completely, they're unlikely to return.

What happens if the RMT succeeds only to find that a significant drop in passenger numbers results in services being curtailed or stations being mothballed or who knows what else? You know that old dusty saying, "Be careful what you wish for"? It holds up after all these years for a reason.
 

pt_mad

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ASLEf still say officially they are against DOO rollout anywhere else though don't they?

Perhaps it should also be taken into account the extensive ASLEf action that occured in Southern leading to the final agreement. What's to say that kind of pain isn't heading Northern's way in due course?

If ASLEf say tjwy, and partixpartic their members don't like or agree with DOO and don't want anymore, doesn't that tell us the real oliniop of front line train drivers who will be expected to actually operate to this method?
 

Robertj21a

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The RMT has engaged constructively with Network Rail and its predecessors over many years to make sure that everyone in the signalling grade who wants a job can have a job, that a decent redundancy package is on offer for those who want to stay and that the whole process is managed fairly - so there’s been a commitment to no compulsory redundancies for many years now, and you’re a long way off the mark with your comments.

I understand that they’ve made their move early because they feel that they left it too late to make a difference on Southern. As above, my experience is that they’ve worked very constructively in the signalling grades. There’s no need for a dispute at all here, yet the DfT seem to have gone out of their way to provoke one (either that, or they’re not committed to the OBS role in the long term - I still don’t understand the benefit otherwise!).


I know we've been over all this before - and I know you still always say that you can't see the benefits etc. Without Arriva explaining their proposals in more detail - and the RMT allowing that to happen by being more co-operative - none of us can be sure we have any answers at all.
However, I would assume (indeed, hope) that Arriva have some ideas to put to the staff which would, primarily, aim for a far more flexible workforce, rather than just being designated as guards. It seems to be generally accepted by most people (but not necessarily on this thread) that a much better customer-facing role is required by TOCs, and the travelling public. Most guards would, probably, see the need for an improvement in that area and, hopefully, relish the idea [I assume that some guards may believe that they may not be up to a suitable standard, or simply prefer sitting in the back cab]. Once they take on a more customer-facing role there's little reason why the job description shouldn't include other associated issues - rail staff will know far better than me as to what these could be but I'd guess some general tasks that may occasionally involve ticket issue, revenue control, booking offices, routine customer enquiries etc etc. The key being flexibility.
 

pt_mad

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I know we've been over all this before - and I know you still always say that you can't see the benefits etc. Without Arriva explaining their proposals in more detail - and the RMT allowing that to happen by being more co-operative - none of us can be sure we have any answers at all.
However, I would assume (indeed, hope) that Arriva have some ideas to put to the staff which would, primarily, aim for a far more flexible workforce, rather than just being designated as guards. It seems to be generally accepted by most people (but not necessarily on this thread) that a much better customer-facing role is required by TOCs, and the travelling public. Most guards would, probably, see the need for an improvement in that area and, hopefully, relish the idea [I assume that some guards may believe that they may not be up to a suitable standard, or simply prefer sitting in the back cab]. Once they take on a more customer-facing role there's little reason why the job description shouldn't include other associated issues - rail staff will know far better than me as to what these could be but I'd guess some general tasks that may occasionally involve ticket issue, revenue control, booking offices, routine customer enquiries etc etc. The key being flexibility.

Being allowed to dispatch from rear cabs allows guarda to view the platform through an open window though, so it is beneficial for dispatch purposes, as that's probably the best view anyone else could ever get of the platform. Superior to behind a saloon door or via cctv.
 

Meerkat

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And it seems that really is what it’s all about - beating the RMT. Most of the stated objectives - shorter dwell times and “more visible” customer service could be easily and peacefully achieved with some sensible adjustments to the current grade that’d easily satisfy the RMT’s red lines.

But that still keeps a guard grade on every train, and still leaves RMT with blackmail power.
The RMT have made themselves a target that must be broken.
It all comes down to what ASLEF will do. The next election isn’t until 2022, so it will come down to getting ASLEF on board then getting enough DCO that they only need the guards that won’t strike.
 

a_c_skinner

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Northern must know what ASLEF will do, surely? They'd not have got to this stage without finding out privately.
 

Tomnick

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It seems to be generally accepted by most people (but not necessarily on this thread) that a much better customer-facing role is required by TOCs, and the travelling public. Most guards would, probably, see the need for an improvement in that area and, hopefully, relish the idea [I assume that some guards may believe that they may not be up to a suitable standard, or simply prefer sitting in the back cab]. Once they take on a more customer-facing role there's little reason why the job description shouldn't include other associated issues - rail staff will know far better than me as to what these could be but I'd guess some general tasks that may occasionally involve ticket issue, revenue control, booking offices, routine customer enquiries etc etc. The key being flexibility.
I don’t think there’s been any suggestion at all that any new OBS-esque grade would take on other duties, but maybe that sort of flexibility would help to offset the inefficiency of the spare capacity necessary to ensure a robust plan if there’s a commitment to provide a second member of staff on all trains (even with that exceptional circumstances clause). An interesting thought?

There’s absolutely no reason why those in the existing grade shouldn’t be as visible as an OBS with no safety-critical duties would be. No-one should routinely be hiding in back cabs, nor should the management be letting them do so - I know that some do, and they’re a disgrace to the grade, especially given the current dispute!

Being allowed to dispatch from rear cabs allows guarda to view the platform through an open window though, so it is beneficial for dispatch purposes, as that's probably the best view anyone else could ever get of the platform. Superior to behind a saloon door or via cctv.
Agreed, but it does limit their “visibility” to the passengers, so allowing and encouraging dispatch from various positions throughout the train (perhaps using the back cab still for locations with a higher risk) would be a sensible compromise and still preferable to the driver doing the dispatch alone.

But that still keeps a guard grade on every train, and still leaves RMT with blackmail power.
The RMT have made themselves a target that must be broken.
It all comes down to what ASLEF will do. The next election isn’t until 2022, so it will come down to getting ASLEF on board then getting enough DCO that they only need the guards that won’t strike.
The RMT only need to be broken if it suits someone’s political agenda to do so! This dispute aside, as widespread as it is, I don’t think they’re particularly unreasonable. As above, my personal experience is that they’ve been rather constructive in dealing with a significant reduction in the workforce as progress marches on.

I’d be surprised if DOO on most of the existing fleet was considered feasible, and even more surprised if ASLEF would accept it. Things like fitting monitors in a suitable location in existing cramped cabs, bodyside cameras on body profiles not designed for them, independent access to cabs and so on would all concern me greatly.

Northern must know what ASLEF will do, surely? They'd not have got to this stage without finding out privately.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they hadn’t. ASLEF’s opposition to DOO is clear, albeit undermined by their (understandable but unfortunate) position on Southern, and in any case it’d surely have to be put to the membership. As Gems says, I doubt they’ll be rushing to accept it on the west side in particular, where McGee and Zee are very close to home.
 

HH

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Who knows what has already gone on behind the scenes. It's in neither side's interests to say anything at present.
 

Robertj21a

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Who knows what has already gone on behind the scenes. It's in neither side's interests to say anything at present.


Quite, sometimes a spell of silence indicates some movement. In this case, however, I honestly doubt much has gone on behind the scenes between RMT and Arriva - there's no trust on either side. I wouldn't be too surprised if there's been a chat between ASLEF and Arriva.
 

Andyh82

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Last night's Look North carried a report on the effect of the strikes on the independent traders in Hebden Bridge, who rely on the train to bring visitors from Leeds and Manchester.
Indeed they did.

Hebden Bridge has basically had no rail service at all on a Saturday in months

(They occasionally get one or two trains some weeks but it’s basically no service to think of)

Today traffic was heavy, buses were busy, some services, such as the Transdev 60 has been upgraded to double deckers. The amount of money Northern must be losing over these next few weekends must be massive.
 

uww11x

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Quite, sometimes a spell of silence indicates some movement. In this case, however, I honestly doubt much has gone on behind the scenes between RMT and Arriva - there's no trust on either side. I wouldn't be too surprised if there's been a chat between ASLEF and Arriva.

I have had heard it's going on until summer at least.
 

johntea

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Based on the fact there was a training manager on my train to work the other day on his way to be trained in guard duties after 'avoiding it for over a year' I suspect not much has changed behind the scenes and they're trying to train up as many back office staff as possible to cope!
 

northernchris

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Indeed they did.

Hebden Bridge has basically had no rail service at all on a Saturday in months

(They occasionally get one or two trains some weeks but it’s basically no service to think of)

Today traffic was heavy, buses were busy, some services, such as the Transdev 60 has been upgraded to double deckers. The amount of money Northern must be losing over these next few weekends must be massive.

Hebden Bridge has been receiving an hourly service from Leeds the last few weeks, although nothing from the Manchester or Preston direction.

I was on the 60 today and it was the usual branded single decker, however did see a double decker on the route as well.
 
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