So you have no experience at driving a train at 100mph. So you have no idea of the skill involved in it. Sorry but there is just no comparison between a preserved line and the big bad world of the mainline.
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Arriva Rail North DOO
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So you have no experience at driving a train at 100mph. So you have no idea of the skill involved in it. Sorry but there is just no comparison between a preserved line and the big bad world of the mainline.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's a lot of skill for a human to do it. The principle of "accelerate smoothly to the specified speed and decelerate smoothly to a precise stopping position at the rate the computer determines, and emergency stop if anything is detected by radar in the train's path or anything is detected to have been hit, and release the doors when detected to be at the intended station stop[1]" is not a difficult IT problem at all, and is something a computer will be able to do with absolute precision and total safety. If things really go awry, the guard could then step in and deal with it as they do on the DLR, such as by driving manually at low speed.
But anyway this is a bit OT, and there is an existing thread regarding "guard only operation" and other automation here, which I would suggest we move to if you wish to continue this subthread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/advantages-and-disadvantages-of-driverless-trains.156585/
[1] The guard could of course close up and press "go".
Ow how I love the beautiful world of those who spend their entire lives in the perfect world of a computer. Probably explains why things are bad and unreliable when they come out into the real world. But yes we have debated this ad infinitum before. Let me know when it happens won’t you
a_c_skinner
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It does seem a highly predictable system that could be automated, though I do hope the DOO debate can be settled in a shorter time frame than automation is likely to take.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That it might be possible to phase out drivers instead in 10-20 years, at least on some routes, could be seen as a reason not to do away with guards, of course.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A train was used in ATO mode but there has been no rollout of ATO since (that I'm aware of) It's not due for operation till next year at some point.
Yeah but what I was asking was when a train is traveling from the depot in the morning to it's station start point. If there is no guard present onboard for the empty stock move (because the guard joins at the origin station, where they book on).
What would happen if the train was stopped at a station along the way, because of technical fault or issue, which meant the driver needed to release one (or more) passenger doors to deal with? If they are instructed not to close the doors by themselves without a guard, how would the train move off? (Presuming that the station did not have dispatched staff).
Didn't realise that thanks.
Ow how I love the beautiful world of those who spend their entire lives in the perfect world of a computer. Probably explains why things are bad and unreliable when they come out into the real world. But yes we have debated this ad infinitum before. Let me know when it happens won’t you
Computers do repetitive jobs day in day out faultlessly. They screw up when they try to interface to humans. Most 'signalling faults' are interfacing with track circuits and points etc. fixing delicate electronics to big lumps of metal subject to stresses isnt easy.
And most computer errors are due to operator error or crap interfaces, like poorly designed screens with rubbish validation.
But a train driver does.
1. obey signals. Been doing that on Victoria Line since 1967. I am sure a system to say target distance to stop signal is easily achievable as an input into the computer
2. Obey speed restrictions - just need a way of transmitting those to the train. Ballaises do that. or a database and GPS.
3. Accelerate and brake according to conditions. That is a closed loop system comparing train speed vs wheel speed. Like they have used with doppler radar for many years. WSP is established technology. Cl91 has a 'dial target speed' facility and driver put the power on full and the train accelerates to that speed.
4. obstructions. google driverless does this. The range may be an issue. Not my area of expertise. Different technologies exist
5. check the train. Most equipment is not monitored by the train system and Alsthom have an automated system to check the exterior for problems at depots (Used on Pendolios). You could adapt station CCTV to check the train. Or use the customer facing onboard staff to do that.
6. open and close the doors. Opening is easy. You know you are in the platform, and stopped so open the doors. Checking the train before closing the doors, and checking after before setting off the CCTV could check. If we can have obstruction detection on level crossings, then we must be able to do this soon.
Do tell me what I have missed.
The big question is, is the train driven by an onboard computer, or do you have a computer in the signalling system that does this stuff and transmits simple commands to the train?
I wonder how well the computer would be able to consider environmental conditions and visual cues to judge how poor railhead conditions are, and adjust the braking curve accordingly, or how it’d determine whether that person acting strangely at the end of the platform is preparing to jump in front of the train, or how it’d respond to handsignals from platform staff who haven’t had time to stop the job, or how it’d identify that cow within the boundary fence so that it can be reported to the Signalman (in accordance with the rules) *before* it becomes a danger to trains.
Yes, trains can drive themselves automatically (with an enormous investment in the infrastructure), but there’s lots of other problems to overcome before you can do away with the driver.
I’m not going to get into a long protracted argument with you. I suggest you might want to give yourself a dose of that mean harsh unpredictable place we call the real world at some point. Please Let me know when these all singing all dancing fully automated trains come along.
a_c_skinner
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This is off topic but:
All of those are pretty straightforward apart from the potential suicide, but as above they will take ages to do.
All of those are pretty straightforward apart from the potential suicide, but as above they will take ages to do.
Killingworth
Established Member
Leaving aside all these futuristic trains without drivers, the present issue is about trains which need conductor/guards and the allocation of their duties. There are perceptions of major changes to roles and possible job insecurity.
Guarantees have been offered to all in the current role until one year after expiry of the current franchise, 31st March 2026. That's as secure as most people can enjoy, anywhere.
I was speaking to a friend who lives in Edale today. The Hope Valley line's busiest days are Saturdays and Sundays when backpackers from both east and west flock to the southern end of the Pennine Way by train. There are no Northern services to Edale on any strike days!
There are no buses to Edale but two tea rooms, two pubs, a youth hostel and several camp sites. Half the visitors come by train
Northern helpfully advise intending visitors "Make your way to Hope, Castleton Road Church to catch the 273/274 to Sheffield Interchange" That's a walk of about 5 miles! There are 4 273/274 buses a day to Sheffield, although the 272 is hourly, taking an hour to get there. The train takes 33 minutes. Remember that 5 mile walk, and then having got to Sheffield a connecting train taking almost an hour back to Manchester!
Surprise, surprise - folks aren't coming! Staff can't get to businesses without cadging lifts. The pubs both report big drops in trade. The current operators of the cafe immediately below the station have given notice to quit. It's reported the other cafe is for sale. Staff with less secure employment than rail staff are to lose jobs now. There is deep gloom.
Clearly the strike isn't the only reason why businesses pack up, but the present action is certainly a factor in several people's forthcoming job losses. It's also a factor in reducing scope for local residents to get new jobs nearby, and their ability to travel to jobs elsewhere.
The claim that the dispute is to save jobs rings somewhat hollow in places currently without Saturday services.
BTW all the Hope Valley line stations served by Northern figure in the bottom 100 out of 2600 national stations in terms of punctuality.
Has the railway industry no feelings for the people it's supposed to serve? Is collateral damage to other people's jobs and livelihoods OK?
Guarantees have been offered to all in the current role until one year after expiry of the current franchise, 31st March 2026. That's as secure as most people can enjoy, anywhere.
I was speaking to a friend who lives in Edale today. The Hope Valley line's busiest days are Saturdays and Sundays when backpackers from both east and west flock to the southern end of the Pennine Way by train. There are no Northern services to Edale on any strike days!
There are no buses to Edale but two tea rooms, two pubs, a youth hostel and several camp sites. Half the visitors come by train
Northern helpfully advise intending visitors "Make your way to Hope, Castleton Road Church to catch the 273/274 to Sheffield Interchange" That's a walk of about 5 miles! There are 4 273/274 buses a day to Sheffield, although the 272 is hourly, taking an hour to get there. The train takes 33 minutes. Remember that 5 mile walk, and then having got to Sheffield a connecting train taking almost an hour back to Manchester!
Surprise, surprise - folks aren't coming! Staff can't get to businesses without cadging lifts. The pubs both report big drops in trade. The current operators of the cafe immediately below the station have given notice to quit. It's reported the other cafe is for sale. Staff with less secure employment than rail staff are to lose jobs now. There is deep gloom.
Clearly the strike isn't the only reason why businesses pack up, but the present action is certainly a factor in several people's forthcoming job losses. It's also a factor in reducing scope for local residents to get new jobs nearby, and their ability to travel to jobs elsewhere.
The claim that the dispute is to save jobs rings somewhat hollow in places currently without Saturday services.
BTW all the Hope Valley line stations served by Northern figure in the bottom 100 out of 2600 national stations in terms of punctuality.
Has the railway industry no feelings for the people it's supposed to serve? Is collateral damage to other people's jobs and livelihoods OK?
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Puffing Devil
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What needs to be done to remove the guard role from the train? For example, could another member of staff close the doors and give the go signal, with no other duties? What would prevent this?
I do hope everyone who argues so fervently in favour of automation will be volunteering to spend the rest of their working life on the dole. Many of them are of course people involved in IT qho frankly could do with a spell on the dole anyway, so bad are the systems they lumber the rest of us with
If you re-read the comment, you will see clearly from its context that it applies to the north of England.
Ow how I love the beautiful world of those who spend their entire lives in the perfect world of a computer. Probably explains why things are bad and unreliable when they come out into the real world. But yes we have debated this ad infinitum before. Let me know when it happens won’t you
No, things are bad and unreliable in the real world because people aren't doing their jobs and operating the trains.
Most IT systems are as required by the business. if they dont specify what they need properly, then the ****e they get refelects the ****e requirement. And UAT is a joke. Few in the business know how to properly test new software to ensure its fit for purpose. So most, they get what the programmer thinks they want, a programmer who has never done that job. The programmers unit test tests what he thinks they will do, but doesnt test what they will actually do.
I feel like weeping when I see people trying to cope with a computerised till that clearly has rubbish. software. Did the boss not test the software before buying to see if it was intuitive enough for busy staff to use? I went in the pub the other day and ordered a coffee and they allocated by tab to a small table. Missus and some friends came in so moved to a bigger table. I went to pay for mine and the wifes coffee (the friends wanted to pay separately) with plastic. Jeez. took 2 staff to sort it out. And this was a chain so they bought software for 20 outlets without checking this basic function worked properly.
tell that to the 1/6 of office staff who have left my client since 2016. the staff in the 5 closed warehouses across Europe who have been made redundant. The 2 middle age women who used to post cheques into the customers accounts whose jobs went to a cheque scanner.
You can be luddite and resists the massive changes coming, or look at the opportunities it gives. But people across the North will remember the journeys disrupted by the May timetable fiasco, Notwork Rails engineering over-runs the DOO strikes, the leaf fall problems etc. And will consider other ways to travel in the future. Its easy to sell to an existing customer, very hard to sell to one you have let them down. I bet Transdev and First are laughing all the way to the bank. Sad.
underbank
Established Member
What I can't understand is why driverless cars are expected to become reality within a decade but railway people are claiming (hoping) it'll be 20 years before trains are driverless. Driverless cars will have to face a lot more "problems" on the roads than a driverless train would face on rails. If people believe that driverless cars will be capable of dealing with visual clues, poor road conditions, persons acting strangely within a decade - far more frequently and of course have to steer too, why won't the same apply to trains which by and large are in fixed routes (tracks) without other trains straying on to their tracks. If the technology really is just around the corner for cars, then it must surely already be here for trains.
Jonfun
Established Member
Quite simply, cost. Of course driverless trains are technically possible, but the railways barely bring in enough money to pay for the essentials, infrastructure projects are being cut left right and centre, the question is where would the money come from to design, test and implement a network of driverless trains?
dont. move towards it incrementally. Like they have been doing with signalling since WW2.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A good start would be the Stourbridge Town Car, which is no more complicated a problem than any of the airport people mover things.
underbank
Established Member
So where will the money come from to make driverless cars a reality?
Say your phone is supposed to phone Trevor when you say "Call Trevor", it might be if you say "Ring Trevor" it doesn't know what to do or if you say "Call Trevor" with a strong accent it doesn't know what to do or phones the wrong person. More time on testing and development would fix those problems but companies often don't want to spend more time on testing and developing as that phase is when they are spending money, when the product is released they are making money.
people will pay for it. People who have to drive 100 miles on a motorway regularly will jump at the chance to sit back, inspect their eyelids and listen to smooth Fm instead of stressing about doing 50 in all the roadworks.
There are some significant changes to the strike timetable for next Saturday if the times on RTT are complete. The earlier and later examples I found were ones which would allow someone working 9-5 on the Saturday to get the trains/replacement buses to get to work - it looks like that wasn't an issue which affected using airport line services.
For the all night party animals who have local stations on the airport line (with the exception of East Didsbury) they have the option of a 9pm or 10pm train in to Manchester and a 5am replacement bus back home. Is that an option on any other Northern route?
It is sad, though you have highlighted a set of issues which have resulted in an atrocious service across the north for some time, most of which would not be solved by automating trains, getting rid of guards etc.
I've no problem with advances in technology making human life better. I do have problems with so-called improvements, designed solely to cut staffing costs, the financial benefits of which accrue to a tiny number of people rather than to the wider population, and which result in worse services
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