Arriva Rail North DOO

B&I said:

It is sad, though you have highlighted a set of issues which have resulted in an atrocious service across the north for some time, most of which would not be solved by automating trains, getting rid of guards etc.

I've no problem with advaces in technology making human life better. I do have problems with so-called improvements, designed solely to cut staffing costs, the financial benefits of which accrue to a tiny number of people rather than to the wider population, and which result in worse services

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But surely this is a case of those savings being spent in the wrong place, rather than them bring wrong in principle?

pt_mad said:

Yeah but what I was asking was when a train is traveling from the depot in the morning to it's station start point. If there is no guard present onboard for the empty stock move (be.

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Since around 1983 when BR first reached agreement with ASLEF to run freight and empty passanger stock under DOO conditions the traditional guards role within the depot and yard environment was transferred over a period of time almost entirely to shunters, train preparers and/or specific Depot Drivers, and since privatisation at some depots fitters are also passed to drive trains within the depot

Ken H said:

people will pay for it. People who have to drive 100 miles on a motorway regularly will jump at the chance to sit back, inspect their eyelids and listen to smooth Fm instead of stressing about doing 50 in all the roadworks.

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No one is suggesting that trains CANNOT be automated. Of course they can. They already are. It's the processes that are required to reach that goal that are the issue.


We have a large complex OLD railway system. To retro fit the whole lot will cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. Someone has to be willing to stump up the cash to do it. At present the state pays for most infrastructure work because the risk to private capital is too great. The trains are run by private operators. They will pay for the ongoing costs of staff because that's still cheaper than the sums needed to change the infrastructure the trains use are too great for them to obtain a return within the terms of the franchises.


So when we build NEW lines - HS1, the DLR, the Victoria Line - we can automate from the start. That's much easier. The vast majority of automated trains run on NEW segregated lines. Unless we have a major rebuild of the network, those are always going to be in the minority. You may also notice we seem to have a big problem with such projects in the UK - the West Coast upgrade and the Thameslink programme - ATO worked for a demo train and actually not very well anyway - and that was just on a short stretch.


Yes, we can do it incrementally. That's still a long term process and may never be completed - we have been trying to electrify our trunk routes since 1955 and we still haven't reached Bristol, Cardiff, Nottingham or Sheffield. Meanwhile you still have to employ drivers to cover the non automated bits in the same way that you still need diesel trains until all the wires are up. More hefty costs.


Meanwhile there is a review and a new policy on rail roughly every two minutes, so as soon as one project gets underway (London Overground say) it gets stalled by a political change, or the financial climate changes and projects get slashed.


Neither trains nor driverless cars can defeat the laws of physics. Please don't dismiss the leaf fall problem - you should be aware now that it is a real problem, and the railway takes the measures that are available to it to try and address the problem. Even when it goes for broke it is thwarted, our SoS recently stopped Network Rail cutting down trees close to a line because of NIMBYs complaining. You can't have MORE trains on a network that has been brutally rationalised and still maintain it properly and safely in the brief window overnight or at weekends. Something has to give. And driverless cars will still have to do 50 through miles of road works and sit in traffic jams.


Technology is already replacing people. There are platform indicators instead of a man putting up a wooden board - though some might argue the latter worked better in disruption. Ticket machines mean that booking clerks now leave the office and sweep platforms and clean toilets - though not all tickets are available and it is not always clear what the right ticket is. CCTV means most of London and the SE is DOO now - and I can assure you from experience both as a former commuter and a current DOO driver that it is definitely a retrograde step. Ironically DOO makes automation less likely in the fragmented system we have - a mess of different operators, traction types, no clear direction or central management, because until the whole thing is automated, you need to pay drivers anyway, even if you will eventually be paying them to be guards instead, so there's no real incentive to lose them.


So yes, we can automate the railway. IF there is a will to see it through. IF it is properly resourced. IF there is an effort to get the technology right. IF we up our game with project management. IF rail is taken seriously as part of our national infrastructure. It's interesting that in other European nations that do value their railways properly, with continuous programmes of investment and improvement, haven't seen any major implementation of driverless trains yet. The practical versus the possible.

otomous said:

Technology is already replacing people. There are platform indicators instead of a man putting up a wooden board - though some might argue the latter worked better in disruption.

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It really, really didn't. And most stations had nothing at all. The idea of a bloke with a fingerboard at one of the Cambrian request stops is fanciful - but they've got proper 3-line LED displays now! What used to happen at those kinds of halt is that you waited and hoped the train showed up.

The current PIS situation in disruption is without doubt the best it has ever been. Coupled with platform staff provision in many locations you get the best of both worlds.

Bletchleyite said:

But surely this is a case of those savings being spent in the wrong place, rather than them bring wrong in principle?

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Yes, that is (partly) what I was trying to get at. Widespread automation risks even greater inequality and social breakdown, unless it is accompanied by a programme to educate many more people to do what jobs will remain, and greater sharing of the proceeds of the resultant costs savings.

The other part is that, as things stand, an awful lot of automation is just an excuse to downgrade services, with the technology insufficiently advanced to substitute, or simply lacking the abilities a human would have in the same situation, generally to interact properly with another human. I have a lot of automated customer service systems in mind here.

Bletchleyite said:

It really, really didn't. And most stations had nothing at all. The idea of a bloke with a fingerboard at one of the Cambrian request stops is fanciful - but they've got proper 3-line LED displays now! What used to happen at those kinds of halt is that you waited and hoped the train showed up.

The current PIS situation in disruption is without doubt the best it has ever been. Coupled with platform staff provision in many locations you get the best of both worlds.

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Well for remote areas that's fair enough, I'm talking about the situation I've seen in the area I live and work in.

B&I said:

The other part is that, as things stand, an awful lot of automation is just an excuse to downgrade services, with the technology insufficiently advanced to substitute, or simply lacking the abilities a human would have in the same situation, generally to interact properly with another human. I have a lot of automated customer service systems in mind here.

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That can of course be done a better way - automate the actual service so you can do more things yourself, then a higher quality of customer service can be provided for when it really goes wrong. This is the Monzo style model, or before that the Co-op Bank "Smile" one. A railway comparison is to provide a large bank of TVMs (or, on something like Merseyrail or the Northern services around Manchester, a TfL style Oyster/Contactless scheme) and a member of staff to assist with them, plus a couple of ticket windows with well-trained expert staff (perhaps even laid out so you sit down at a desk and take a number to queue) for really complex stuff rather than a row of say 4 ticket windows with a massive queue.

The problem is indeed where it's only used to save money. The trouble, though, is that Northern is subsidised to the hilt and so there is a need to save money.

Bletchleyite said:

The current PIS situation in disruption is without doubt the best it has ever been.

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And yet, even where there is no disruption, trains can still turn up at the station that aren't on the PIS displays - even scheduled/timetabled ones. It's only as good as the person at the keyboard getting it right.

Bletchleyite said:

The problem is indeed where it's only used to save money. The trouble, though, is that Northern is subsidised to the hilt and so there is a need to save money.

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Well. At the moment we may as well be flushing 50 pound banknotes down the loo. Strike day number 38, coming up this weekend!

Starmill said:

Well. At the moment we may as well be flushing 50 pound banknotes down the loo. Strike day number 38, coming up this weekend!

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Perhaps we should all guess whether or not we'll reach 100................or perhaps not

Starmill said:

Well. At the moment we may as well be flushing 50 pound banknotes down the loo

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I'd be very interested to know if that is actually true, or if it is in fact saving money.

underbank said:

And yet, even where there is no disruption, trains can still turn up at the station that aren't on the PIS displays - even scheduled/timetabled ones. It's only as good as the person at the keyboard getting it right.

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PIS should be driven by the signalling train describers and the national timetable database. not people typing stuff in.

otomous said:

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So when we build NEW lines - HS1, the DLR, the Victoria Line - we can automate from the start. That's much easier. The vast majority of automated trains run on NEW segregated lines. Unless we have a major rebuild of the network, those are always going to be in the minority. You may also notice we seem to have a big problem with such projects in the UK - the West Coast upgrade and the Thameslink programme - ATO worked for a demo train and actually not very well anyway - and that was just on a short stretch.


...

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TFL are putting ATO in on all the sub surface network.

Ken H said:

PIS should be driven by the signalling train describers and the national timetable database. not people typing stuff in.

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Sometimes it is necessary to fix things where such data may be lacking (consider how you have to give RTT, which is wholly automated, a bit of a sanity check at times), but I agree this should be a rare event, and trains should not be showing up unexpected or plain wrong on the PIS if things are being done properly (and indeed I can't recall the last time I saw that happen[1], unlike at Manchester Oxford Road in the 1990s when it was being permanently manually overridden and just plain wrong in the late evening when the staff had gone home).

[1] Unless you count a last minute change of calling pattern on Thameslink which was I think decided after arrival.

Bletchleyite said:

I'd be very interested to know if that is actually true, or if it is in fact saving money.

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Given that we are paying the subsidy without getting the economic and social benefits, I'd say it's definitely money down the pan.

yorksrob said:

Given that we are paying the subsidy without getting the economic and social benefits, I'd say it's definitely money down the pan.

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Is the subsidy not withheld for non-operation in the case of rail? It is in the case of bus; a local service near me with appalling reliability (due mainly to driver misbehaviour, i.e. wilful and significant early running and skipping bits of the route in order to take a longer break) used to be a bugbear of mine, every time I noted it out of place I reported it to the Council who told me they were able to withhold payment for each such journey.

B&I said:

I do hope everyone who argues so fervently in favour of automation will be volunteering to spend the rest of their working life on the dole. Many of them are of course people involved in IT qho frankly could do with a spell on the dole anyway, so bad are the systems they lumber the rest of us with

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This leads some to believe that sometime within the next 50 years there may be a 'universal income' paid to all recognised cizitens. I think it applies in at least one country in Europe already. Where all cizitens are paid a basic wage just for being resident in the country, because there isn't necessary enough employment to either A. Give everyone a full time job or B. Not necessarily enough employment that everyone can have a job which pays enough to live in that country. I.e. where they may next suplimentry benefits to top up their wages so they can keep their house flat or family.

In essence that is already the case here in many part of society. That the worker's wage doesn't pay enough to actually live and bring up a family. So tax credits or the new system have to kick in.

Carlisle said:

Since around 1983 when BR first obtained agreement from ASLEF to run freight and ECS under DOO conditions the traditional guards role within the depot and yard environment has transferred over a period of time almost entirely to shunters, train preparers and/or specific Depot Drivers, and since privatisation at some depots fitters are also passed to drive trains within the depot

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Didn't realise that. So it is possible an empty stock driver may have to dispatch the train by themselves if they stop out of course at a station without dispatch staff?

Essentially they'd have to carry out the train safety check anyway wouldn't they?

Bletchleyite said:

Sometimes it is necessary to fix things where such data may be lacking (consider how you have to give RTT, which is wholly automated, a bit of a sanity check at times), but I agree this should be a rare event, and trains should not be showing up unexpected or plain wrong on the PIS if things are being done properly (and indeed I can't recall the last time I saw that happen[1], unlike at Manchester Oxford Road in the 1990s when it was being permanently manually overridden and just plain wrong in the late evening when the staff had gone home).

[1] Unless you count a last minute change of calling pattern on Thameslink which was I think decided after arrival.

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This should probably be in the 'stuff we saw that doesnt happen now' thread but when they rebuilt Leeds station in the 60's the PIS consisted on a TV screen showing a frame of horizontal slats with departure time, destination and platform. Once in a while a hand would come into view and take the top one away, slide the others up and put a new one at the bottom. Just showed class 1 trains

Also, on the concourse there was a display of a huge roll like an old bus destination display with all departures on. Every so often a bloke would come out with a special key and wind it on to keep it up to date.
Here it is:-

pt_mad said:

This leads some to believe that sometime within the next 50 years there may be a 'universal income' paid to all recognised cizitens. I think it applies in at least one country in Europe already. Where all cizitens are paid a basic wage just for being resident in the country, because there isn't necessary enough employment to either A. Give everyone a full time job or B. Not necessarily enough employment that everyone can have a job which pays enough to live in that country. I.e. where they may next suplimentry benefits to top up their wages so they can keep their house flat or family.

In essence that is already the case here in many part of society. That the worker's wage doesn't pay enough to actually live and bring up a family. So tax credits or the new system have to kick in.

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so why would anyone work then?

Ken H said:

so why would anyone work then?

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I'm not suggesting it or endorsing it (the universal income). I'm just stating that it existing a it at least one country in Western Europe.

It may be that the amount is only like a minimum wage and to have any sort of lifestyle above affording food and rent one needs to work. I don't know, pure speculation.

Bit it's one theory which may end up being applied in other countries in decades time if automation is as big as we think it may be.

I mean in 100 years we could have robots doing the jobs in care homes, whole production lines run by computers, all of transport automated. The only guaranteed human jobs may be design, people management (for what human workforce there is) and hospitality where people want to be looked after and served. Hospitality and service jobs often being low paid, such as waiting on etc.

pt_mad said:

I'm not suggesting it or endorsing it (the universal income). I'm just stating that it existing a it at least one country in Western Europe.

It may be that the amount is only like a minimum wage and to have any sort of lifestyle above affording food and rent one needs to work. I don't know, pure speculation.

Bit it's one theory which may end up being applied in other countries in decades time if automation is as big as we think it may be.

I mean in 100 years we could have robots doing the jobs in care homes, whole production lines run by computers, all of transport automated. The only guaranteed human jobs may be design, people management (for what human workforce there is) and hospitality where people want to be looked after and served. Hospitality and service jobs often being low paid, such as waiting on etc.

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And tekkies. screwdriver men, and computer men. (and women)

Ken H said:

And tekkies. screwdriver men, and computer men. (and women)

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Yep true. But if the idea of automation is 1. To reduce cost of the task, 2. Reduce errors vs human and 3. Save humans the deminial task of having to do repetitive mind numbing work such as screwing two nuts onto a bracket and putting it back in the line, for 9 hours five days a week, then humans should reap the benefits of this technology as well.

Which would surely mean, hugely reduced working week,more rest, more leisure, better life for all enjoying the benefits which the evolution of humankind would surely mean this technology should bring. It shouldnt just mean private profits increase. It should mean people should enjoy a better quality of life with more leisure because machines have been developed to eliminate simple manual work forever.

Bletchleyite said:

Is the subsidy not withheld for non-operation in the case of rail? It is in the case of bus; a local service near me with appalling reliability (due mainly to driver misbehaviour, i.e. wilful and significant early running and skipping bits of the route in order to take a longer break) used to be a bugbear of mine, every time I noted it out of place I reported it to the Council who told me they were able to withhold payment for each such journey.

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It depends on whether we're paying compensation to the company for being on strike.

pt_mad said:

Yep true. But if the idea of automation is 1. To reduce cost of the task, 2. Reduce errors vs human and 3. Save humans the deminial task of having to do repetitive mind numbing work such as screwing two nuts onto a bracket and putting it back in the line, for 9 hours five days a week, then humans should reap the benefits of this technology as well.

Which would surely mean, hugely reduced working week,more rest, more leisure, better life for all enjoying the benefits which the evolution of humankind would surely mean this technology should bring. It shouldnt just mean private profits increase. It should mean people should enjoy a better quality of life with more leisure because machines have been developed to eliminate simple manual work forever.

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We were all told that when computers were introduced - and no need for paper........

Robertj21a said:

We were all told that when computers were introduced - and no need for paper........

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There was a long period when computers just produced more paper, but I think, with screen quality now being up to reading from for long periods, we are actually getting there now. Printer ownership is dropping somewhat, and offices increasingly are not full of piles of paper.

Robertj21a said:

We were all told that when computers were introduced - and no need for paper........

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Were talking long term though. In 100 years imo it's pretty like most factory's will run with only humans maintaining computers which do the work. And I'm sure they will have invented automated fruit and potato picking machines by then which are programmed by a farmer and then go out and harvest. Meaning a lot of the repetitive low skill mind.nimvong jobs could we be lost in the long term as natural automation increases.

Ken H said:

so why would anyone work then?

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Because UBI would only ever pay for a basic lifestyle (let's say a small rented house or flat in a basic area with precisely the right number of bedrooms, basic but healthy food and drink, basic clothes, bus travel, a basic Internet connection and suitable device for using it e.g. an Android tablet or budget Android PAYG phone). If you have aspirations, work and earn more. If you don't, fine, just live off the UBI and nobody need worry about it.

There's an active thread discussing UBI here by the way: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tomation-world-etc.162671/page-4#post-3434188

Bletchleyite said:

Because UBI would only ever pay for a basic lifestyle (let's say a small rented house or flat in a basic area with precisely the right number of bedrooms, basic but healthy food and drink, basic clothes, bus travel, a basic Internet connection and suitable device for using it e.g. an Android tablet or budget Android PAYG phone). If you have aspirations, work and earn more. If you don't, fine, just live off the UBI and nobody need worry about it.

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And it may be that the normal working week would be say 20 hours. And 20 hours may top up the universal basic income nicely to give a decent quality of life. Add to that in 100 years there will probably be appliances in houses to wash up, iron, cook and clean with little effort, all this should mean a better lifestyle for people. It all relys on the wealth and benefits of automation being spread and not just ploughed into corporate profit.