Arriva Rail North DOO

Bletchleyite · 26 Nov 2018

pt_mad said:
Add to that in 100 years there will probably be appliances in houses to wash up, iron, cook and clean with little effort

I'll give you clean (though we might find that the issue of needing to dust might be resolved a different way, e.g. by air filtration systems rather than automated dusting machines) - but are you living in the 1970s or something? I've got machines that do the other two quite happily - well, sort-of - no need to iron shirts or trousers if you buy non-iron ones and hang them straight out of the machine, and cooking is handled, if you really can't be bothered, by way of increasingly good quality ready meals and online ordering. (Many people enjoy cooking, though, and wouldn't want to automate it out).

OK, you have to empty the dishwasher, but if I could be bothered that could be resolved by having two.

Anyway, this really doesn't have anything to do with DOO, unless you're figuring that the guards perhaps have a bit of extra time for housework on a Saturday at the minute!

RailUK Forums

Mogster · 26 Nov 2018

pt_mad said:
I'm not suggesting it or endorsing it (the universal income). I'm just stating that it existing a it at least one country in Western Europe.

It may be that the amount is only like a minimum wage and to have any sort of lifestyle above affording food and rent one needs to work. I don't know, pure speculation.

Bit it's one theory which may end up being applied in other countries in decades time if automation is as big as we think it may be.

I mean in 100 years we could have robots doing the jobs in care homes, whole production lines run by computers, all of transport automated. The only guaranteed human jobs may be design, people management (for what human workforce there is) and hospitality where people want to be looked after and served. Hospitality and service jobs often being low paid, such as waiting on etc.

75% of the economy is already service and knowledge based, the days of humans operating machines as a job are growing to a close.

The problem with any sort of universal wage scheme is how expensive it would be. Just £10,000 per year to 50mil people would cost 500bn. That’s close to total government expenditure that runs at around 700bn iirc. I’m not sure how those figures can ever add up.

Robertj21a · 26 Nov 2018

Perhaps we should get a bit more back on topic before a Moderator deletes all this off-topic stuff........

pt_mad · 26 Nov 2018

Mogster said:
75% of the economy is already service and knowledge based, the days of humans operating machines as a job are growing to a close.

The problem with any sort of universal wage scheme is how expensive it would be. Just £10,000 per year to 50mil people would cost 500bn. That’s close to total government expenditure that runs at around 700bn iirc. I’m not sure how those figures can ever add up.

There's thousands employed in factorys such as JLR. Many of them are doing production jobs right? Also there are huge distribution warehouses all over the land which will probably be automated at some point as humankind evolves.

Yes universal income would be expensive. But what are the benefits of existing factory automation? The car company pays more tax, that's what we're sold as the benefit. The rest is profit . But that only benefits the poputlation if this tax extra corporation tax paid is reinvested at national level, or diashed out equally. The closest to that at present is suplimentry benefits such as tax credits and universal credit and child benefit. As automation increases and unskilled job numbers decline, if profits increase then this will need to be distributed mode equally. Either through the benefits system, huge national spending, reduction in taxes or some sort of universal basic income.

Anyway yes I admit were drifting off but driverless trains were mentioned for a couple of pages of posts so that's how we got into this.

Bletchleyite · 26 Nov 2018

Robertj21a said:
Perhaps we should get a bit more back on topic before a Moderator deletes all this off-topic stuff........

Agreed, I've linked a couple of threads above where these discussions can continue.

pt_mad · 26 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'll give you clean (though we might find that the issue of needing to dust might be resolved a different way, e.g. by air filtration systems rather than automated dusting machines) - but are you living in the 1970s or something?

It has been said

. I'll reply again when my teleprinter prints your reply.

Ken H · 26 Nov 2018

pt_mad said:
There's thousands employed in factorys such as JLR. Many of them are doing production jobs right? Also there are huge distribution warehouses all over the land which will probably be automated at some point as humankind evolves.

Yes universal income would be expensive. But what are the benefits of existing factory automation? The car company pays more tax, that's what we're sold as the benefit. The rest is profit . But that only benefits the poputlation if this tax extra corporation tax paid is reinvested at national level, or diashed out equally. The closest to that at present is suplimentry benefits such as tax credits and universal credit and child benefit. As automation increases and unskilled job numbers decline, if profits increase then this will need to be distributed mode equally. Either through the benefits system, huge national spending, reduction in taxes or some sort of universal basic income.

Anyway yes I admit were drifting off but driverless trains were mentioned for a couple of pages of posts so that's how we got into this.

Any employer, including the railway, will look at the capital cost of automating against employing people. But automation can bring other benefits. robots dont need a lit heated place to work in. And the product will be exactly the same all the time.
So apart from de-staffing trains, ATO may bring benefits in train regulation, which is why they have gone for it for Thameslink. So some sort of ATO may be part of the solution for the Castlefield - Piccadilly line in Manchester. But implementing that with the range of classes on that route may be difficult.

Starmill · 26 Nov 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'd be very interested to know if that is actually true, or if it is in fact saving money.

I suspect that whole it could save money in the business on each indivudal day, across the francise term it will result in massive losses through undone customer goodwill and reputational damage.

If you expand the calculation to include the external costs, such as those to the environment of the extra driving, and the cost to business of fewer customers and less mobile staff, the costs are astronomical.

B&I · 26 Nov 2018

Ken H said:
Any employer, including the railway, will look at the capital cost of automating against employing people. But automation can bring other benefits. robots dont need a lit heated place to work in. And the product will be exactly the same all the time.
So apart from de-staffing trains, ATO may bring benefits in train regulation, which is why they have gone for it for Thameslink. So some sort of ATO may be part of the solution for the Castlefield - Piccadilly line in Manchester. But implementing that with the range of classes on that route may be difficult.

Solving problems via 'the digital railway' ? You are Boiled Egg Grayling and I claim my £10 !

B&I · 26 Nov 2018

Mogster said:
75% of the economy is already service and knowledge based, the days of humans operating machines as a job are growing to a close.

The problem with any sort of universal wage scheme is how expensive it would be. Just £10,000 per year to 50mil people would cost 500bn. That’s close to total government expenditure that runs at around 700bn iirc. I’m not sure how those figures can ever add up.

Prepare for societal collapse as most of the population becomes unemployed and governments' primary form of revenue (income tax) evaporates.

pt_mad · 26 Nov 2018

B&I said:
Prepare for societal collapse as most of the population becomes unemployed and governments' primary form of revenue (income tax) evaporates.

Corporate tax revenue won't deteriorate though will it? If anuthian it should increase with this high profit low cost big business?

superkev · 26 Nov 2018

Ignoring the arguments does anyone on here think the RMT have any chance of winning there war. Perhaps a poll is called for.
K

scrapy · 26 Nov 2018

superkev said:
Ignoring the arguments does anyone on here think the RMT have any chance of winning there war. Perhaps a poll is called for.
K

The final outcome will probably be somewhere in the middle with both sides claiming victory. There is unlikely to be any winners in reality.

Dave1987 · 26 Nov 2018

scrapy said:
The final outcome will probably be somewhere in the middle with both sides claiming victory. There is unlikely to be any winners in reality.

I agree. Once the DFT relents there will undoubtedly be a pragmatic solution. I have no doubt that Grayling, Wilkinson and the DFT as a whole are the biggest reason the whole sorry saga has gone on so long. Especially when pragmatic agreements have been done elsewhere. Grayling has only one response when being questioned in parliament, 'blame the unions', and to any further questioning, blame the unions more and more and more.....

Paceman · 26 Nov 2018

Even less trains are being run on Saturday. Someone on here was saying they would run later - not the case at all. Starting later and finishing earlier on a few routes.

Carlisle · 26 Nov 2018

pt_mad said:
Didn't realise that. So it is possible an empty stock driver may have to dispatch the train by themselves if they stop out of course at a station without dispatch staff?

Essentially they'd have to carry out the train safety check anyway wouldn't they?

Yes, with the old slam door stock, unless travelling a relatively short distance, doors were all usually meant to be manually locked before departure, meaning some workings retained guards until the fitting of secondary locking systems in the early 90s which largely sorted that problem.

Robertj21a · 26 Nov 2018

Dave1987 said:
I agree. Once the DFT relents there will undoubtedly be a pragmatic solution. I have no doubt that Grayling, Wilkinson and the DFT as a whole are the biggest reason the whole sorry saga has gone on so long. Especially when pragmatic agreements have been done elsewhere. Grayling has only one response when being questioned in parliament, 'blame the unions', and to any further questioning, blame the unions more and more and more.....

An interesting response. So, the RMT is totally blameless ?

northernchris · 26 Nov 2018

Paceman said:
Even less trains are being run on Saturday. Someone on here was saying they would run later - not the case at all. Starting later and finishing earlier on a few routes.

Some lines are much worse this week! Last train from Leeds to Skipton is at 1656 (not including the LNER) a whole 2 hours earlier than the now standard Saturday timetable

Dave1987 · 26 Nov 2018

Robertj21a said:
An interesting response. So, the RMT is totally blameless ?

No, but when you take into consideration the pragmatic deals that have agreed elsewhere what was the one factor that was absent? ow yes Grayling and the DFT. Have we not heard from yourself and other right wingers that they and you see this as ideological war on the RMT and unions as a whole? That the RMT needs to be “neutralised”. Despite the fact the RMT represents many thousands of members of whom only a small amount are guards. The DFT have gotten to a stage where people believe that their union has their best interests at heart over and above the Government department which has overall oversight on the industry. That’s a very sad state of affairs. But not unsystematic of the party in Government.

Robertj21a · 26 Nov 2018

Dave1987 said:
No, but when you take into consideration the pragmatic deals that have agreed elsewhere what was the one factor that was absent? ow yes Grayling and the DFT. Have we not heard from yourself and other right wingers that they and you see this as ideological war on the RMT and unions as a whole? That the RMT needs to be “neutralised”. Despite the fact the RMT represents many thousands of members of whom only a small amount are guards. The DFT have gotten to a stage where people believe that their union has their best interests at heart over and above the Government department which has overall oversight on the industry. That’s a very sad state of affairs. But not unsystematic of the party in Government.

I haven't said anything about the RMT needing to be 'neutralised', nor have I said anything about this being an ideological war on the RMT and unions as a whole, so you can stop forever trying to put words in my mouth - yet again.

When you talk about pragmatic deals elsewhere, you seem to have conveniently ignored the fact that it was the RMT that started the strike action on Arriva Rail North, despite assurances of no job redundancies.

Confused52 · 26 Nov 2018

Paceman said:
Even less trains are being run on Saturday. Someone on here was saying they would run later - not the case at all. Starting later and finishing earlier on a few routes.

Quite and between those two insignificant North West cities of Liverpool and Manchester on Saturday 1st Dec I see no Northern services at all.

Killingworth · 26 Nov 2018

Confused52 said:
Quite and between those two insignificant North West cities of Liverpool and Manchester on Saturday 1st Dec I see no Northern services at all.

Not been a Northern train between Sheffield and Manchester on any strike day, whatever the day of the week.

Wouldn't be quite so bad if TPE were operating 6 coach trains but even the few they were operating have been reduced to 3 so they can lend Northern two 185 units!

East Midlands were making few extra stops but gave them up months ago because track congestion through Stockport and Manchester to, and particularly from, Liverpool makes them late on every journey.

PR1Berske · 26 Nov 2018

superkev said:
Ignoring the arguments does anyone on here think the RMT have any chance of winning there war. Perhaps a poll is called for.
K

To answer your direct question; no. The RMT keeps fighting but the war is lost

matt · 26 Nov 2018

This thread has run its course and is now locked.

If you need advice during the strikes then please use this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...imetable-travel-advice-on-strike-days.173601/

ainsworth74 · 28 Nov 2018

This thread has been locked as the Forum Staff felt that there was no purpose in keeping it open. There have been no new developments in the dispute itself for several months now. The underpinning issues remain unchanged. All that remains is the toxic mix of views espoused by adherents to either side of the issue as they go over and over and over again the same ground.

As such the thread has been locked. Travel advice can be found at the linked thread.

If there are developments in relation to the dispute (i.e. some productive talks take place or similar) then feel free to report this post and the Forum Staff will consider re-opening the thread.

I hope our position on this is clear.

ainsworth74 · 28 Nov 2018

ainsworth74 said:
There have been no new developments in the dispute itself for several months now.

Well then. Rather awkwardly, having just said the above, it does now appear that there have been some developments! Transport for the North have waded in as reported in the Guardian:

The Guardian said:
Northern rail’s attempts to remove guards from trains in the north of England have been dealt a blow after the statutory body tasked with planning transport in the region publicly opposed the plans.

Transport for the North (TfN), which prioritises long-term infrastructure investment in the north, asked Northern Rail to return to the negotiating table with the Rail, Maritime and Transport union. The RMT has called strike action for 19 consecutive Saturdays, significantly disrupting rail travel across the north of England during the key Christmas period.

In a statement on Tuesday TfN said: “Transport for the North does not support removing the second person from trains, particularly when a significant proportion of rail stations in the north of England are classed as inaccessible for disabled passengers.”

Continues.....

Link

Therefore this thread has been reopened to discuss this development and the possible consequences of it. The thread may be re-locked in the future if we end up back going over the same ground again.

yorksrob · 28 Nov 2018

Interestingly, in the full press release, TfN reiterates that it has the responsibility to agree any contractual amendments, and that as far as it's concerned, all options are on the table.

This is surely a concrete intervention designed to prompt them to come to an arrangement:

"Transport for the North has this evening called on both rail operating company Northern and trade union RMT to come together and get back around the negotiating table.

The statutory transport body has acted in the interest of the North’s passengers, with the aim to ease significant disruption to passengers during the busy run-up to Christmas.

Transport for the North’s members, made up of civic and business leaders across the North, have agreed a position they hope will encourage all parties to work to resolve the long-running dispute.

In the statement – available in full below – Transport for the North confirms it does not support removing the second person from trains. It also says that, in helping facilitate further discussions between both parties, it is willing to consider all options that could lead to an agreement.

Weekend services on the network operated by Northern have been severely disrupted, with last Saturday representing the 37th day of strike action by RMT members.

The full statement reads:

Transport for the North is concerned that the ongoing industrial dispute between Northern and the RMT, with further industrial action planned in the run up to Christmas, will add to the significant disruption that rail passengers across the North of England continue to experience.

Transport for the North does not support removing the second person from trains, particularly when a significant proportion of rail stations in the North of England are classed as inaccessible for disabled passengers.

Transport for the North notes that the normal course of events would be for Northern to reach agreement with the RMT, as has been the case in other parts of the country, and to then seek approval for such an agreement through the Rail North Partnership if any amendments were required to contract terms. Transport for the North wishes to clarify that it would be willing to consider all options that would facilitate such an agreement.

Transport for the North hopes that this clarification will enable Northern and the RMT to have further discussions about staffing arrangements and would urge the RMT to suspend all planned industrial action.

The move reflects the sentiment from Transport for the North’s members: that passenger confidence in the North’s railways must be restored and that the North’s economy cannot suffer as a result of continued disruption.

Commenting on the position, Transport for the North’s Chief Executive Barry White said:

“Businesses across the North’s villages, towns and cities are reaching their busiest time of year. Christmas markets are transforming our bustling centres and people want to enjoy all our economies have to offer. But this is being hampered by uncertainty and disruption on the rail network. People are choosing to make other plans as a result.

“It’s apparent that we need to restore confidence in the North’s railways. There needs to be a way forward. Now more than ever, passengers in the North need reliability as they go about what is a busy time for everyone. We urge both parties to begin meaningful discussions as soon as possible"

ainsworth74 · 28 Nov 2018

yorksrob said:
in the full press release

Thanks for posting, didn't have it to hand!

HowardGWR · 28 Nov 2018

"Transport for the North does not support removing the second person from trains"

That isn't a guard (necessarily). I don't see what has changed and I should not imagine the RMT does either..

Darandio · 28 Nov 2018

And the RMT response to that statement.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-responds-to-transport-for-the-north-statement/

RMT Press Office:

Rail union RMT responds to Transport for the North statement on Northern Rail dispute

General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“ In light of the statement from Transport for the North RMT awaits any new proposals from Northern Rail which maintain for the travelling public the same level of safety, security and access that they enjoy at the moment based on the guarantee of the guard on every train.

“RMT remains available for talks

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