EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

fowler9 said:

And you just threw sovereignty in there when Steve never mentioned it. Are you saying you don't have narrow intransigent views?

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no more narrow or intransigent than the "enlightened, liberal thinking" remainers claim to have... oh I forgot vote Remain and you're an enlightened free thinking self sacrificing saint... vote leave and you're automatically a pig ignorant, xenophobic, knuckle dragging ignoramous who shouldn't be allowed an opinion... far less a vote...

Teflon Lettuce said:

no more narrow or intransigent than the "enlightened, liberal thinking" remainers claim to have... oh I forgot vote Remain and you're an enlightened free thinking self sacrificing saint... vote leave and you're automatically a pig ignorant, xenophobic, knuckle dragging ignoramous who shouldn't be allowed an opinion... far less a vote...

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Where did I say that? If I am part of the liberal elite God help the rest of society. Ha ha.

SteveP29 said:

I suppose you agree with the theory that if the UK restricts movement of people into this country, then other countries can quite rightly restrict your entry into their country.

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Quite right too... ALL countries have the right to decide who enters their country.. I wouldn't ever argue that the UK should be the only one allowed controls... incidently what seems to go right over the heads of remainers on this issue is that one of the favourite places for Brits to emigrate to is Australia... a country that has some of the most stringent border controls anywhere in the developed, free world!

SteveP29 said:

Again, why should British people be given carte blanche to travel all over the world to work and live and better themselves, yet people from other countries can't come to the UK to better themselves?

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more remainer hyperbole.. where have I ever advocated that the UK should have closed borders? or that UK nationals should have the right to enter any other country without any form of controls? I haven't.

SteveP29 said:

Your argument hasn't been any good all through the last couple of weeks either, you keep getting your arse handed to you on a plate, yet like a bad curry, you keep repeating

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oh lets see if I've got this right...

you disagree with my argument... so therefore it's a rubbish argument... and because you can't convince me that your argument is correct then I am being arrogant, selfish and intransigent.... I suggest any remainer who thinks this should take a good hard look in the mirror....

Leave voters have recognised all along that the deal wouldn't give them everything they personally want... that's the nature of "negotiation". Also leave voters have recognised that the system as applied now does NOT work in the best interests of our country... so took the brave, some might say reckless, decision to try and get an improvement...

what have remain supporters done? Refused to accept the result of the democratic vote taken and refused to have any input into what they want from a deal...

and remainers call leavers selfish, arrogant etc etc....

As to the level of debate from remainers... they come out with all these high falluting arguments as to why they are right... and when they fail to convince a leaver that they are right they stoop to personal insult and character assissination.... showing instantly what a high intellect they don't have.

Truth is that Brexit will be one of those events in history where no-one will ever know whether leaving the EU is the right or wrong thing to do... it's something that will NEVER be capable of being put to the test... there will only ever be theory and very little fact to back up an argument...

Another example of the "high intellect" of the Remain camp... I have repeatedly asked on this forum what Remainers would like to see in the Brexit deal considering they're not happy with the one on offer... the response has been telling... the general tenet has been "We didn't vote for Brexit so this mess is nothing to do with us and we don't need to sort it out" REALLY? so all these remain supporters are moving to other EU countries by the end of March next year are they? No? then I've got news for you... the mess our government has got us into is EVERYTHING to do with you.... no matter which way anyone voted the deal that gets brokered between the UK and EU will affect all UK nationals equally no matter which way they voted!

Remainers claim some sort of superior intelligence over Leavers and yet can't grasp this simplest of facts!

SteveP29 said:

Again, why should British people be given carte blanche to travel all over the world to work and live and better themselves, yet people from other countries can't come to the UK to better themselves?
That's 2 faced,
That's arrogant,
That's selfish.

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Has this been suggested?

But according to remainers Australia, New Zealand, India, Canada, etc all want EU style freedom of movement when they negotiate trade deals. Hope this works both ways and can we do a deal with Australia first?

Teflon Lettuce said:

what have remain supporters done? Refused to accept the result of the democratic vote taken and refused to have any input into what they want from a deal...

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I must have imagined all the complaints from the leavers about this deal being terrible because it was created by "Theresa the reMayner".

Mvann said:

But according to remainers Australia, New Zealand, India, Canada, etc all want EU style freedom of movement when they negotiate trade deals. Hope this works both ways and can we do a deal with Australia first?

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well one only has to watch a couple of episodes of a programme showing Australia's customs at work to realise that is just another remainer lie... Australia is absolutely paranoid about the security of it's borders... despite the desperate need for workers it has some of the most stringent eligibility rules for people wanting to settle there...

dosxuk said:

I must have imagined all the complaints from the leavers about this deal being terrible because it was created by "Theresa the reMayner".

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and how exactly does that relate to Remainers refusing to accept the outcome of the referendum in the first place? or their refusal to make any reasonable and valid ideas of how to achieve the democratic will of the people?

The deal isn't terrible because a Remainer came up with it... it's just terrible. FULL STOP. Basically the deal effectively delivers the EXACT OPPOSITE of Brexit. We will be held in a customs union with the EU and have no say in the rules.... and we can only leave when the EU agrees... in other words... WHEN THEY SAY WE CAN GO.... no guaruntees in the deal that we will not be held hostage in the never never land that is the "transition period"

Meanwhile I picked up on a quote from Dominic Raab (in an article in the Telegraph, behind a registration wall) that is also doing the rounds in politics discussion groups on the book of faces:
(The best I could find to confirm it is another article)

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...n-UK-EU-withdrawal-agreement-deal-Theresa-May
BREXIT CHAOS: Dominic Raab REVEALS reason why he resigned: 'STRAITJACKET EU rules!'
THERESA MAY’s Brexit agreement will impose straitjacket EU rules on the UK, which will have a “debilitating effect” on the economy, Dominic Raab has fired.
Writing in a Daily Telegraph column, the former Brexit Secretary listed all the reasons why he resigned, explaining he could not in “good conscience” support the proposed Brexit deal. Last week Mr Raab released a resignation letter following a meeting with the Prime Minister and her cabinet. The Conservative politician had encouraged support towards Mrs May as the Brexit Minister but saw the agreement as a deal breaker.

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Article continues...

Mr Raab ended the column calling for Theresa May to re-evaluate a no-deal exit, as even though it will involve some risk of short-term disruption, the UK will be able to manage or mitigate.

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(my emphasis).

Exactly - no deal will be an irritation for a few months at most, for some of the population. Why squander the greatest opportunity to break free of the European system and gain an advantage in the process.

Also, as a slight aside, if we (as a country) can abstract a shed load of corporation-taxable activity from continental Europe - which is what the EU27 are scared of - we can reduce UK domestic taxes without cuts or borrowing - or even abolishing some secondary taxes and/or improving some services.

Teflon Lettuce said:

well one only has to watch a couple of episodes of a programme showing Australia's customs at work to realise that is just another remainer lie... Australia is absolutely paranoid about the security of it's borders... despite the desperate need for workers it has some of the most stringent eligibility rules for people wanting to settle there...

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My mate got full Australian citizenship after working the front desk at Garston Sports Centre. His mum and dad also did, dinner lady and bus driver respectively. Do you think the UK should be this strict on what skilled workers we allow in?

Also import tarifs would go to the government and not the EU

Jonny said:

Meanwhile I picked up on a quote from Dominic Raab (in an article in the Telegraph, behind a registration wall) that is also doing the rounds in politics discussion groups on the book of faces:
(The best I could find to confirm it is another article)


Article continues...
(my emphasis).

Exactly - no deal will be an irritation for a few months at most, for some of the population. Why squander the greatest opportunity to break free of the European system and gain an advantage in the process.

Also, as a slight aside, if we (as a country) can abstract a shed load of corporation-taxable activity from continental Europe - which is what the EU27 are scared of - we can reduce UK domestic taxes without cuts or borrowing - or even abolishing some secondary taxes and/or improving some services.

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You live in a fantasy realm if you think leaving the EU is going to result in lower taxes.

Teflon Lettuce said:

and how exactly does that relate to Remainers refusing to accept the outcome of the referendum in the first place? or their refusal to make any reasonable and valid ideas of how to achieve the democratic will of the people?

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Remainers supporting and helping to deliver Brexit would be like Labour voters getting behind a Conservative government (and vice versa) they didn't vote for.

507021 said:

Remainers supporting and helping to deliver Brexit would be like Labour voters getting behind a Conservative government (and vice versa) they didn't vote for.

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It is quite astounding how remainers are expected to make Brexit work when David Davis and Dominic Raab can't and Johnson and Rees-Mogg can't be bothered.

507021 said:

Remainers supporting and helping to deliver Brexit would be like Labour voters getting behind a Conservative government (and vice versa) they didn't vote for.

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did I say help deliver it? No... but all remainers do is, at best, stand on the sandlines shouting "We're doomed... we're ALL DOOMED" in their best impression of Pvt Fraser.... considering that Brexit WILL happen and that the deal brokered WILL affect remainers as equally as leavers it doesn't take a large leap of logic to realise that the "superior intellect" of remainers is a myth if they can't grasp that simple fact... BREXIT IS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THEM....

Teflon Lettuce said:

did I say help deliver it? No... but all remainers do is, at best, stand on the sandlines shouting "We're doomed... we're ALL DOOMED" in their best impression of Pvt Fraser.... considering that Brexit WILL happen and that the deal brokered WILL affect remainers as equally as leavers it doesn't take a large leap of logic to realise that the "superior intellect" of remainers is a myth if they can't grasp that simple fact... BREXIT IS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THEM....

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No it isn't, you won, get over it. You voted for it, you own it. What you broke you pay for. I'm not having this mess on my conscience.

fowler9 said:

It is quite astounding how remainers are expected to make Brexit work when David Davis and Dominic Raab can't and Johnson and Rees-Mogg can't be bothered.

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not expected to make it work... just make suggestions instead of just shouting foul... that's the problem with democracy... sometimes you're asked to make a policy/ decision work whether you voted for it or not.... of course there is always the option of finding a country ruled by dictatorship that fits in with your beliefs... and emigrate....
another question for remainers... if you want to live within the EU and you believe this country is doomed by it's decision to leave.... what are you still here for? why haven't you moved to France, Spain or wherever?

Teflon Lettuce said:

did I say help deliver it? No... but all remainers do is, at best, stand on the sandlines shouting "We're doomed... we're ALL DOOMED" in their best impression of Pvt Fraser.... considering that Brexit WILL happen and that the deal brokered WILL affect remainers as equally as leavers it doesn't take a large leap of logic to realise that the "superior intellect" of remainers is a myth if they can't grasp that simple fact... BREXIT IS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THEM....

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Why should we. Its wrong, it's stupid and it's going to cause a lot of damage. Here is a thought... You get behind remain....and a 2nd referendum... Thought not.

fowler9 said:

No it isn't, you won, get over it. You voted for it, you own it. What you broke you pay for. I'm not having this mess on my conscience.

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if it's got nothing to do with you when are you emigrating? you're not? then it WILL affect you and it WILL be your problem/ solution as it will be mine. It's basic logic really... you live in this country.. so the decisions/ agreements made by this government in your name WILL affect you...

or is this the latest tactic? refuse to participate and then IF it all goes wrong spend the next 10 yrs carping from the sidelines and frustrating every attempt to make Brexit work?

Teflon Lettuce said:

not expected to make it work... just make suggestions instead of just shouting foul... that's the problem with democracy... sometimes you're asked to make a policy/ decision work whether you voted for it or not.... of course there is always the option of finding a country ruled by dictatorship that fits in with your beliefs... and emigrate....
another question for remainers... if you want to live within the EU and you believe this country is doomed by it's decision to leave.... what are you still here for? why haven't you moved to France, Spain or wherever?

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Nonsense. Absolute utter rubbish. Why do I have to make suggestions to make it work. Any deal you get will be worse than what we had. Me and mine are fine by the way.

Teflon Lettuce said:

why haven't you moved to France, Spain or wherever?

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Because our freedom of movement has been taken from us.

nidave said:

Why should we. Its wrong, it's stupid and it's going to cause a lot of damage.

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in
your opinion.

What remainers don't seem to grasp is that there are no facts in this situation when forecasting the outcome of Brexit... only theories. It may be that remainers are right.. they could just as equally be wrong.
I'm sure now I'll be pointed to the "vast body of evidence" that Brexit will be a disaster... the problem with that "evidence" is twofold... one it is all, as I have said, theory and forecast. Secondly, the vast majority of this "evidence" has been funded/ produced by organisations that have a vested interest in the status quo... after all no EU agency is going to "forecast" a good outcome for Brexit is it?

And let's not forget that all the "evidence" at the time suggested it would be a disaster for the UK not to join the Euro.... and let's not forget it was those same agencies and organisations that are now forecasting Brexit will be an economic disaster....

Teflon Lettuce said:

in
your opinion.

What remainers don't seem to grasp is that there are no facts in this situation when forecasting the outcome of Brexit... only theories. It may be that remainers are right.. they could just as equally be wrong.
I'm sure now I'll be pointed to the "vast body of evidence" that Brexit will be a disaster... the problem with that "evidence" is twofold... one it is all, as I have said, theory and forecast. Secondly, the vast majority of this "evidence" has been funded/ produced by organisations that have a vested interest in the status quo... after all no EU agency is going to "forecast" a good outcome for Brexit is it?

And let's not forget that all the "evidence" at the time suggested it would be a disaster for the UK not to join the Euro.... and let's not forget it was those same agencies and organisations that are now forecasting Brexit will be an economic disaster....

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Why not get behind remain... Your demanding we change our mind. Why can't you change your opinions.

fowler9 said:

Nonsense. Absolute utter rubbish. Why do I have to make suggestions to make it work. Any deal you get will be worse than what we had. Me and mine are fine by the way.

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another fine example of the remainer "altruism" that they claim they have that makes them superior to leave voters... who only ever voted for selfish reasons.

nidave said:

Why not get behind remain... Your demanding we change our mind. Why can't you change your opinions.

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a one line response from a remainer that doesn't answer a single point raised.... another example of the superior remain intellect and debating skills lol.

I haven't demanded anyone changes their mind... what I have - repeatedly- asked is for remainers to accept that if Brexit goes ahead {and I concede that with this "deal" it is in danger of not going ahead} then whatever deal we have will affect all equally.. leavers and remainers. Now... if it WILL affect remainers... then it is in their own self interest for them to engage in the process and suggest what WOULD make Brexit acceptable to them. 1 or 2 have answered that... but it is notable that most have refused to... with nothing more than a petulant "why should I?"

It really does stagger me that Remainers, despite their self proclaimed superior intellect, cannot grasp the simple fact that Brexit WILL affect them so the deal we get has EVERYTHING to do with them....

Because most remainers don't want to emigrate, they just want the option to be able to.

Teflon Lettuce said:

in
your opinion.

What remainers don't seem to grasp is that there are no facts in this situation when forecasting the outcome of Brexit... only theories. It may be that remainers are right.. they could just as equally be wrong.
I'm sure now I'll be pointed to the "vast body of evidence" that Brexit will be a disaster... the problem with that "evidence" is twofold... one it is all, as I have said, theory and forecast. Secondly, the vast majority of this "evidence" has been funded/ produced by organisations that have a vested interest in the status quo... after all no EU agency is going to "forecast" a good outcome for Brexit is it?

And let's not forget that all the "evidence" at the time suggested it would be a disaster for the UK not to join the Euro.... and let's not forget it was those same agencies and organisations that are now forecasting Brexit will be an economic disaster....

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The damn chancellor has admitted any form of Brexit will damage the economy. What more do you want?
Sure they are forecasts, but when every forecast suggests the same thing you tend to take notice.
If you were going on a trip and the weather forecast suggested heavy rainfall, would you refuse to take waterproof clothes just because it was a forecast and so may not happen? Of course not! And if the main purpose of your trip was to spent time outside in the sun, and the forecast was for heavy rain, you may well abandon your trip altogether!

Teflon Lettuce said:

a one line response from a remainer that doesn't answer a single point raised.... another example of the superior remain intellect and debating skills lol

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Hmmm shall I go back and repost every single point raised from myself that you have ignored?

Mag_seven said:

Because our freedom of movement has been taken from us.

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no it hasn't... not yet.

Teflon Lettuce said:

another fine example of the remainer "altruism" that they claim they have that makes them superior to leave voters... who only ever voted for selfish reasons.

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He ha, no mate, me and mine are fine despite your vote, not because of it. I want what is best for most people and as such I find it impossible to get behind Brexit. You make it sound like you are desperately asking for help getting the least worst result. As some of your fellow Brexiters have suggested that the EU is like the third reich do you think the whole of Germany back in 1939 should have been altruistic and got behind it to make it work?

Teflon Lettuce said:

no it hasn't... not yet.

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You really have no idea do you? If any of us moved to Germany or France tomorrow and then the UK bombs out then we are getting sent home. You lot took it all away.