• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Why wasn't HS2 phase 1 four-tracked to Birmingham?

Status
Not open for further replies.

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,262
I think that's just speculation. It remains to be seen whether captive trains will be ordered for phase 2. And if there are captive trains, it further remains to be seen whether any will be double deck.

True, but it would seem sensible to purchase an 'off the peg' duplex train which provides greater capacity with little cost penalty, assuming it's not a micro-fleet. And it won't be: London-Brum, London-Manchester, London-Leeds, Brum-Leeds, Brum-Manchester services will require 60+ 200m train sets (assuming some are doubled-up), which is a decent fleet size. There will also need to be more classic-compatible sets in Phase 2, so the Phase 1 trains will not be lying idle as a result of ordering captive trains.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,262
No new high speed line in Europe has more than 2 tracks, not even the original Paris-Lyon LGV in France which is pretty much at capacity.
They go for signalling improvements first (and are already bi-directional).

Am I right in thinking there are no 4-tracked high speed lines anywhere in the world? (excluding station approaches, junctions etc.) I understand the Shinkansen manages three different stopping patterns with loops off the 2-track main line.
 

modernrail

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2015
Messages
1,019
Every train stopping at Old Oak Common sounds very sensible to me, not least because of the connections it will provide to Heathrow from the north. It will be an interesting feature though. Can anybody think of another high speed line in Europe where trains stop at an interchange style station like this so close the final destination? How long will the journey time from OOC to Euston be?

I hope the design of Old Oak Common is extremely friendly to passengers who are transferring from HS2 to Elizabeth line trains for the airport. For instance by having multiple connections from HS2 platform level to Elizabeth Line level. You want an experience as close to the Northern Line - Victoria line transfer at Stockwell as possible rather than a half mile walk from the end of the HS2 train to your Elizabeth line train. Maybe the platforms should have travelators as well.

I would much prefer that money is spent on making the interchange experience as near to perfect as possible than on any grand statement station. One of the failings of some high speed stations on the continent for me is that they concentrate on grand statement rather than the passenger transfer experience, especially considering the length of the trains.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,539
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Every train stopping at Old Oak Common sounds very sensible to me, not least because of the connections it will provide to Heathrow from the north. It will be an interesting feature though. Can anybody think of another high speed line in Europe where trains stop at an interchange style station like this so close the final destination?

In Hamburg everything (pretty much) calls at all stations on the "Verbindungsbahn" (very similar to the Castlefield line in Manchester) as far as Harburg, which is pretty much directly comparable.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
In Hamburg everything (pretty much) calls at all stations on the "Verbindungsbahn" (very similar to the Castlefield line in Manchester) as far as Harburg, which is pretty much directly comparable.

St Pancras-Stratford-Ebbsfleet is a good example already in the UK.

Berlin stations do, e.g. Spandau, Sudkreuz, Ostbahnhof, .etc... (albeit not on a High Speed line)

Not many countries actually have dedicated high speed terminal stations; generally using existing termini (as, unlike us, permitted by their capacities).
 

WideRanger

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2016
Messages
325
Every train stopping at Old Oak Common sounds very sensible to me, not least because of the connections it will provide to Heathrow from the north. It will be an interesting feature though. Can anybody think of another high speed line in Europe where trains stop at an interchange style station like this so close the final destination? How long will the journey time from OOC to Euston be?

Not Europe, but on the Tokaido Shinkansen in Japan, every train stops at Shinagawa just a few miles from Tokyo station. And in the other direction on the Tohoku Shinkasen, everything stops at Ueno station. There are trains on other lines on the Shinagawa - Tokyo - Ueno corridor roughly every minute over the other 3 lines that do the route.
 

Elecman

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2013
Messages
2,880
Location
Lancashire
Yep, basically 6-tracking Euston to Lichfield and beyond, 4-tracking Rugby to Birmingham. The other two tracks just happen to go via a completely different alignment, but take the bulk of the current 'Pendolino' service.

Actuall6 it’s 8 if you include the Chiltern mainline
 

tasky

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2018
Messages
381
Can anybody think of another high speed line in Europe where trains stop at an interchange style station like this so close the final destination?

Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy on the outskirts of Paris is pretty similar – it has an RER station (the network which is probably the biggest inspiration for Crossrail)

It also has very good links to a number of other TGV lines, so if you're going from say, Brussels (via LGV Nord) to Strasbourg (via LGV Est) you end up changing there.

It's a lot easier than changing between the termini in Paris

Here's a map of the lines serving it – LGVs in blue. From this rather lovely map http://www.latitude-cartagene.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/MEP_POSTER_janvier2018_WEBOpt.pdf

Screen Shot 2018-11-16 at 18.15.50.png
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy on the outskirts of Paris is pretty similar – it has an RER station (the network which is probably the biggest inspiration for Crossrail)

It also has very good links to a number of other TGV lines, so if you're going from say, Brussels (via LGV Nord) to Strasbourg (via LGV Est) you end up changing there.

It's a lot easier than changing between the termini in Paris

Here's a map of the lines serving it – LGVs in blue. From this rather lovely map http://www.latitude-cartagene.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/MEP_POSTER_janvier2018_WEBOpt.pdf

View attachment 55509

Marne-la-vallee is on the bypass Interconnection line. Nothing serves it *and* one of the central Paris termini (normally).
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy on the outskirts of Paris is pretty similar – it has an RER station (the network which is probably the biggest inspiration for Crossrail)

It also has very good links to a number of other TGV lines, so if you're going from say, Brussels (via LGV Nord) to Strasbourg (via LGV Est) you end up changing there.

It's a lot easier than changing between the termini in Paris

Here's a map of the lines serving it – LGVs in blue. From this rather lovely map http://www.latitude-cartagene.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/MEP_POSTER_janvier2018_WEBOpt.pdf

View attachment 55509

Massy TGV is the obvious one, although I’m not at all sure any TGVs still stop there any more!
 

ABB125

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2016
Messages
3,746
Location
University of Birmingham
Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy on the outskirts of Paris is pretty similar – it has an RER station (the network which is probably the biggest inspiration for Crossrail)

It also has very good links to a number of other TGV lines, so if you're going from say, Brussels (via LGV Nord) to Strasbourg (via LGV Est) you end up changing there.

It's a lot easier than changing between the termini in Paris

Here's a map of the lines serving it – LGVs in blue. From this rather lovely map http://www.latitude-cartagene.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/MEP_POSTER_janvier2018_WEBOpt.pdf

View attachment 55509
What a brilliant map! Are you aware of any others available either of the same type or similar for different countries?
 

Andy25

Member
Joined
14 May 2018
Messages
157
It is also worth noting that the HS2 trains will be considerably longer than current trains. Apparently the spec is for 1000 passengers seated whereas a current 11 car Pendolino seats just over 650. If the above is also for a single floor it may also be possible to go double decker like the TGV Duplex for additional capacity.
Not sure this is correct, Pendo is 265m long, HS2 sets 200m. So unless they're running double sets it would suggest less capacity ?
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,972
Not sure this is correct, Pendo is 265m long, HS2 sets 200m. So unless they're running double sets it would suggest less capacity ?

Double sets are the plan for 2026 for London-Birmingham and London-Scotland (splitting and joining to serve both Edinburgh and Glasgow). Liverpool will have 2tph instead of 1tph with peak extras. Manchester capacity will be slightly reduced unless there is 1tph Pendolino service serving south WCML stations.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,223
The 200m classic-compatible and captive sets are both planned to have a capacity of ~550 passengers in a two-class configuration. As far as I'm aware that's a rough equivalent of the capacity of an 11-car Pendolino despite its extra length. In the intervening 25 years the packaging of EMUs has improved (e.g. equipment cabinets being put above the ceiling or below the floor) so that more useful passenger space can be eked out of the same available length.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
The 200m classic-compatible and captive sets are both planned to have a capacity of ~550 passengers in a two-class configuration. As far as I'm aware that's a rough equivalent of the capacity of an 11-car Pendolino despite its extra length. In the intervening 25 years the packaging of EMUs has improved (e.g. equipment cabinets being put above the ceiling or below the floor) so that more useful passenger space can be eked out of the same available length.
The Pendolino and Voyager are particularly bad in terms of the amount of space available for seating, partly because the tilting reduced the cross-section and also needed space to be found for extra equipment. Both older and younger trains have significantly more useable floorspace in relation to length.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Double sets are the plan for 2026 for London-Birmingham and London-Scotland (splitting and joining to serve both Edinburgh and Glasgow). Liverpool will have 2tph instead of 1tph with peak extras. Manchester capacity will be slightly reduced unless there is 1tph Pendolino service serving south WCML stations.

Euston-Manchester HS2 trains will no longer be collecting demand from the likes of Milton Keynes etc either.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,569
Location
Yorkshire
Massy TGV is the obvious one, although I’m not at all sure any TGVs still stop there any more!

Roughly 2tph in each direction when I was there last week. To Paris Nord and CDG in one direction and all sorts in the other.
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,419
The cost cutting report.....
Is there any meat in those recommendations at all? To me it reads like a load of consultant waffle that boils down to “review everything to see if you can do it cheaper”
I would bet on lots of the environmental mitigation’s getting cut along with most of the public transport connectivity - turning into a park and ride environmental disaster and a property scheme for the station locales.
 

B&I

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2017
Messages
2,484
The cost cutting report.....
Is there any meat in those recommendations at all? To me it reads like a load of consultant waffle that boils down to “review everything to see if you can do it cheaper”
I would bet on lots of the environmental mitigation’s getting cut along with most of the public transport connectivity - turning into a park and ride environmental disaster and a property scheme for the station locales.


The local public transport provision was dire as it was
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,419
HS2 is a bit of a shocker environmentally isn’t it?
Lots of concrete to build (especially with all the ‘unnecessary’ tunnelling), and using lots of power to go so fast, and most journeys will either be new or stolen from current lines but with passengers driving a fair distance to parkway stations rather than shorter, possibly bus, trips to their local station.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,569
Location
Yorkshire
HS2 is a bit of a shocker environmentally isn’t it?
Lots of concrete to build (especially with all the ‘unnecessary’ tunnelling), and using lots of power to go so fast, and most journeys will either be new or stolen from current lines but with passengers driving a fair distance to parkway stations rather than shorter, possibly bus, trips to their local station.

Of course, many of the "new" journeys may be instead of driving. And many people will change onto local rail services.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Of course, many of the "new" journeys may be instead of driving. And many people will change onto local rail services.

I can imagine Brum-Manchester for one being accelerated to the extent that it will be would make quite a severe dent in M6 road congestion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top