Season ticket rules

What are the rules on buying seasons in advance?

I tried to get a 7 day season starting on Tuesday on Saturday (3 days in advance) and was told it was not available until "12:00 on Sunday". I know rovers (which are treated as seasons for many purposes) used to be available only 3 days in advance (a rule that has now been withdrawn), but even then I'd have qualified.

The season isn't for me, it's for someone else, I said I'd buy it as I was at the station on Saturday and it was no problem as it wasn't out of my way. The rail industry, as usual, is inconveniencing people.

I know people will say "But you could use it before it starts", but that doesn't stop someone doing it a day later, and the start date is printed any way so you'd have to be stupid to do that. And Rovers are available further in advance now, so how is a Season any different?

The station that did not issue it was Newcastle. Were they right or wrong?

Also, can you buy them on a train (Northern), will the guard be happy to sell it? If so I will advise the person to buy on board to avoid East Coast getting the commission (they don't want to sell it. If a shop didn't want to sell me something I'd go to a different shop. Besides, I think guards deserve the commission more!)

I had to buy mine the day before, as on the actual first day of travel (a Monday) the ticket office at York would have been rammed in the morning. Think I remember being told that you could only do it one day in advance as well. Guessing Newcastle were right in this instance, but not 100%.

Seen people on the York - Leeds train getting 7 day season tickets no problem (at the unstaffed stations), so that should be alright.

Buy a new season ticket or Travelcard

7 Day Season Ticket or Travelcard
On the start date.
If the start date is a Monday (or Tuesday after a Bank Holiday), the season ticket may be issued from 0600 hours on the previous Sunday.

Season Tickets for 1 month or more
If the start date is a Saturday, Sunday or Monday (also Tuesday after a Bank Holiday), the ticket may be issued from noon on the previous Friday.
If the start date is another day, the ticket may be issued after noon on the previous day.


Renew my existing season ticket or Travelcard

7 Day Season Ticket or Travelcard
If the start date is a Sunday or Monday (or Tuesday after a Bank Holiday), the season ticket may be issued from noon on the previous Friday.
If the start date is any another day, the ticket may be issued after noon on the previous day.

Season Tickets for 1 month or more
The ticket may be issued anytime up to SEVEN DAYS in advance.


Peter

If the start date is a Sunday or Monday (or Tuesday after a Bank Holiday), the season ticket may be issued from noon on the previous Friday.If the start date is any another day, the ticket may be issued after noon on the previous day.

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From National Rail Enquiries

AIUI, they were right. Unless there was a bank holiday on the Monday, they cannot issue that ticket.

You've pre-empted what I'm going to say-you can use it before it starts is the problem. In theory you should be immune, but as someone who commutes on some rather busy services in the morning peak, the reality is that the TTIs have no time to analyse every detail on your ticket. They look similar to this. The start date is absolutely tiny in comparison to the end date. Photocard number is hidden away in the corner (on the top orange or blue strip). Even the two stations it's valid between are laid out in an odd manner and quite difficult to see on a quick glance.

yorkie said:

I know people will say "But you could use it before it starts", but that doesn't stop someone doing it a day later, and the start date is printed any way so you'd have to be stupid to do that. And Rovers are available further in advance now, so how is a Season any different?

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Surely the ticket could only be used before it starts if the person checking tickets isn't taking notice when they are doing so? They should notice i is not valid, and any ticket barrier should reject it (if any actually accpet season tickets?). If this is the railway's argument for not selling them, are they acually saying "You might get away with using it because some of our ticket checking staff are incompetent and will probably not see that the ticket is not valid"? If so, it says a lot for their views on their staff.

When STAR was updated to v3, the retailer lost the ability to issue a season more than a day in advance. This is a "bug" apparently.

yorkie said:

I know rovers (which are treated as seasons for many purposes) used to be available only 3 days in advance (a rule that has now been withdrawn), but even then I'd have qualified.

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Do you know what the new rule is?

ChrisTheRef said:

Do you know what the new rule is?

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I asked this a while back, as a few months ago I was still under the impression that the 3-day rule existed, and I was told it no longer does, there is no longer any mention of any limit apparently. I found the topic.

So we have the daft situation where, as theblackwatch says, the railways appear to be saying staff are incapable of checking season tickets are valid! Yet they happily allow rovers in the same circumstances. And if it was a bank holiday weekend I could have bought it a day before I asked for it rather than the day after, and the railways are saying that their staff would have been incapable of checking it's validity for the entire bank holiday weekend. Yet they can check a rover is valid 2 months in advance apparently. Even though the start date is printed identically. How daft! Typical of the rail industry though - you've got to laugh!

I wonder if there's anyone in the country who actually knows all the rules? I suspect not!

First class said:

When STAR was updated to v3, the retailer lost the ability to issue a season more than a day in advance. This is a "bug" apparently.

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That would explain why when I bought a season on a Saturday to start the following Tuesday (after a bank holiday) it was wrongly issued as a renewal rather than a new season ticket - this caused the member of staff to get quite confused when I came to renew it...

we are having star installed soon...

yorkie wrote;

"The season isn't for me, it's for someone else, I said I'd buy it as I was at the station on Saturday and it was no problem as it wasn't out of my way. The rail industry, as usual, is inconveniencing people".​

How is the railway inconveniencing people?, the intended user can surely buy one when he/she gets to the station the next intended day of travel. That's the normal course of business!

Note that Season tickets (or any ticket) cannot "be transferred", as buying for someone else should not normally be possible as season tickets (if issued correctly) ask for the intended users' rail photocard number at a key stage in the issuing process. If someone was to turn up asking for a season ticket with someone else's photocard alarm bells may ring and suspicions aroused! Operationally though, Mums/Dads/Brothers/Sisters,etc do "buy" tickets (with their chosen method of payment) and pass on to their intended user.

The policy on season tickets issued in advance is a bit "hit and miss", they are encouraged by some TOCs (eg: SWT), as it helps out ticket queues the next morning! Northern's Avantix machines used to allow pre-dated seasons, and then at some point last year they were all "doctored" NOT to allow them. (Why?)

TTI said:

How is the railway inconveniencing people?, the intended user can surely buy one when he/she gets to the station the next intended day of travel. That's the normal course of business!

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The intended user will be inconvenienced if he has to lock his bike up, go to the ticket office, queue up, buy the ticket, unlock the bike, get on the train...

How long should he allow for that? If the train is at, say, 0800, what time should he arrive at the station?

I offered to get it as I was at the station anyway on Saturday.

TTI said:

Note that Season tickets (or any ticket) cannot "be transferred",

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So? No-one has said anything about transferring a ticket.

TTI said:

as buying for someone else should not normally be possible as season tickets (if issued correctly) ask for the intended users' rail photocard number at a key stage in the issuing process. If someone was to turn up asking for a season ticket with someone else's photocard alarm bells may ring and suspicions aroused! Operationally though, Mums/Dads/Brothers/Sisters,etc do "buy" tickets (with their chosen method of payment) and pass on to their intended user.

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So can you, or can't you? Can the TOCs please make their minds up, and make it clear, documenting the rules clearly?

With 1 week seasons a photocard isn't needed anyway.

Why should alarm bells ring if someone buys for someone else? I am always buying tickets for someone else, I probably buy more tickets for other people than I do for myself. I've never been told I am wrong for doing this, again where is this documented? Better ban all group discounts, Groupsave, Family railcards, Duo, etc...

Is there a special rule for seasons that only the user can purchase them? If so, where is this documented please?

TTI said:

The policy on season tickets issued in advance is a bit "hit and miss", they are encouraged by some TOCs (eg: SWT), as it helps out ticket queues the next morning! Northern's Avantix machines used to allow pre-dated seasons, and then at some point last year they were all "doctored" NOT to allow them. (Why?)

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Well, exactly, why the different policies? It's hardly...



is it?

yorkie said:

With 1 week seasons a photocard isn't needed anyway.

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It was last time I bought one.

"With 1 week seasons a photocard isn't needed anyway."​

WRONG, I'M AFRAID

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (Condition 15) state that certain ticket types are only valid if a Photocard is held. Season Tickets and Travelcard Seasons must be accompanied by an approved Photocard, except for any 7 Day adult 'In boundary' Travelcard or for any Period/Annual Travelcard issued on Oyster.

In an emergency, a 'Young Person's Photocard' or ’16-25 Photocard’ may be used with a 7-day Season Ticket or Travelcard. However, the customer must obtain an approved Photocard before the next Season Ticket or Travelcard is purchased.

For registered 'visually impaired' persons, an adult Season Ticket may be issued for two persons travelling for the price of one. The Photocard is issued for the 'visually impaired' person only – the other person does not require one. The accompanying person could be different on different days.

A Train Company has every right to refuse to issue a Season Ticket Photocard to someone who has no intention of using it with a Season Ticket.

The customer must apply in person with a passport-style photograph (colour or black and white) of reasonable quality. The application may be declined if the photograph is not of reasonable quality to identify the person.

Holders of any Adult 'In-Boundary' 7-Day Travelcards or any Period/Annual Travelcard issued on Oyster by Train Companies or Transport for London do not require Photocards to support their ticket.

The following Photocards are approved for use with Season Tickets and Travelcards and are basically similar in format:
· ‘Transport for London' Photocards including Oyster Photocards;
· Passenger Transport Executives' Photocards;
· Local Authority Photocards – accompanying ‘Scholars’ Season Tickets

That's ridiculous. Why are Travelcards exempt but you need a photocard with another season ticket?

And you can get them from ticket machines... how does that work?

Why do you need a photocard for a £35 7 day season, but you don't for a £47 7 day travelcard season, nor a £900ish ALR? Where is the logic?

Stop shooting the messenger!

It's all from "The Manual" (aka previously 'The Ticket Examiners Handbook'). Fact

I usually buy my weekly season from the Guard or the fasticket machine. Southern Guards will happily renew your ticket the day before if you ask (they get commision) they need your photocard number. The fasticket machine says you have to insert your number before its valid. I never do, nobody ever queries it on Southern. SWT guards and rpis make a big fuss about filling it in for you, I always say I didnt have a pen.

paul1609 said:

The fasticket machine says you have to insert your number before its valid. I never do, nobody ever queries it on Southern. SWT guards and rpis make a big fuss about filling it in for you, I always say I didnt have a pen.

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So if one of them withdrew it because you were willingly and knowingly using it incorrectly you wouldn't complain would you, or would you call them a jobsworth and kick off!

yorkie said:

The season isn't for me, it's for someone else, I said I'd buy it as I was at the station on Saturday and it was no problem as it wasn't out of my way. The rail industry, as usual, is inconveniencing people.

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To start with as an example my local bus operator has a similar policy to that of the Railway, so it is not a "Railway" policy.

As it does not seem to bother that many people I would take issue with you (pardon the unintentional pun) that this is incoveniencing the public.

Now before people start to get their collective horse, we need to look at a little history.

Weekly seaon tickets have NEVER been available for extended pre-issue going back to the 1950s and 60s, EXCEPT that it was permissible to renew a seaon ticket on a friday after 1200hrs.

The reason was quite simply one of revenue protection, and in any case why would one want to buy a ticket the previous week ?

As I mentioned above, my local bus operator has similar rules.

The situation with Rover tickets emerged simply because there was a totally different passenger using these, normally people who were on their holidays and thus the revenue aspect was much less of an issue.

The question of improper use has arisen. Having spent several days this week travelling long distance to and from London I have heard several disputes on board the trains when punters were picked up for traveliing on tickets that were not valid on that particular service. In several cases this was DESPITE two very clear announcements being made, and in one case desp[ite the Train Manager physically telling the woman that the ticket was NOT valid and she could not travel unless paying the full single fare. When he moved away from the barrier to speak with me, she got on the train anyway

When SHE got picked up, the mythical "member of staff said it was OK" was thrown into the ring as she started to make a bigger fuss.

At this point having witnessed several of these "sob" stories all week, I leant over and pointed out that I had been there when the Train Manager had told her NO, and had walked behind her a little distance before she climbed on board. Cue some very killing stare.

Other excuses could not be heard but all appeared to stem from punters trying to travel on earlier or later trains even though they had benefitted from a much reduced fare by buying tickets for specified services. Again Cue much noise and loud complaints about "customer service", perceived lack of it, "uncaring", Train Manager being a "Little Hitler", etc, etc.

All this has done is to reconfirm my belief that there are a substantial portion of people out there who are arrogant enough to believe that the rules do not apply to them. They want to pay the lowest fare, agree to travel on the specified trains and then want to use the ticket in the same way as a full fare ticket. It is the same attitude that would buy a ticket before its start date and attempt to travel.

It caused me to wonder whether these cheap fares are actually worth the bother as no doubt these are the very same people who publicly slag off the railway, and spread a bad reputation even though they are usually the ones who are in the wrong :roll:

I am rather starting to get the impression you dont like the Railways, old chap, but then I could be wrong ?

Old Timer said:

I am rather starting to get the impression you dont like the Railways, old chap, but then I could be wrong ?

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On the contrary, the people who believe in the current system, the people who believe our complicated fare structure should be understood by customers, the people who believe customers are always wrong... they are the true enemies of the railway. Any industry that exists for the purpose of providing a service to the public, but then confuses the public and assumes that the public is always wrong, is pressing the self-destruct button.

Those stories tell me that the system is overly complicated, customers are confused, the prices are ridiculous, and the conditions are not clear at all. Yes, some people are 'trying it on' but do you honestly believe that all of customers know exactly when and where their ticket is valid and are just trying it on? I suspect some may be, but many are probably just confused and just trying to get to where they want to get to without hassle. No-one demands to know at the petrol pumps what their travel plans are, and penalises them if they deviate from it.
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TTI said:

Stop shooting the messenger!

It's all from "The Manual" (aka previously 'The Ticket Examiners Handbook'). Fact

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I know it's not your fault, but do you agree that the system is utterly ridiculous and confusing?

yorkie said:

do you honestly believe that all of customers know exactly when and where their ticket is valid and are just trying it on?

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Not all customers try it on, but a very large proportion do, I mean when you book a cheap ticket you get a confirmation so you will know exactly which train/ carriage/ seat you are booked on.
Why should they expect to buy a cheap ticket limiting themselves to one train and then get one 2 or 3 hours earlier or later, its not difficult if you want a flexible ticket then buy one!

Sorry but the punters appear to want to travel as cheaply as possible, and I have no doubt that there would be plenty of complaints from these self same people who moan now about complications if we went straight back to BR ticketing arrangements.

The general public have often stated that they wanted the Railways to be like airlines, well their have their wish apart from no access without a seat, but who knows if they keep on about it........................

As for complication, its not really THAT hard if truth be told, although there is still some little way to go with regards to making it easier to FIND those tickets.

A little while back I gave you a KLM fare structure between AMS and JFK (New York) which had something like 60 odd combinations depending on what flight and what day one travelled.

So why is it acceptable for airlines but not for Railways ? Try it on at check-in that you are travelling earlier/later than the fare you paid and you will be turned away. Perhaps the answer if full barriers and do that ?

I am not wholly convinced that people are genuinely confused. If they are then why do they not ask BEFORE travelling ? Why get on a train and then discover that things aint as they should be ?

Let me just sign this agreement to buy this car that I do not quite know what make it is or how many doors or if it is really suitable, etc, etc .....Would that happen ? Of course not. The passenger has the ultimate responsibility to correctly state their journey intentions when buying a reduced ticket and then keeping THEIR side of the bargain. No doubt they would be the first to moan if the TOC did not keep their side, but expect to be able to change their side at will and without sanction.

Whenever I have purchased a ticket that is restricted the restrictions have always been made quite clear in straightforward language, why even the MANDATORY seat reservation and the notices printed boldly on the ticket must give one just a little inkling :roll::roll:


Personally I think that full fare / unrestricted tickets should be issued on in colour and restricted fares should be on another. I think I would also just simply remove all these special train-tied fares and just let people pay a higher fare for the simplicity of it. The public cannot have their cake and eat it.

If they want cheap fares then they have to expect restrictions. If they don't want restrictions then buy the full fare ticket ??.

Old Timer said:

Sorry but the punters appear to want to travel as cheaply as possible, and I have no doubt that there would be plenty of complaints from these self same people who moan now about complications if we went straight back to BR ticketing arrangements.

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Back to the days of SVRs being an acceptable price and valid on any train except from London? I think that would be a lot simpler!

Old Timer said:

The general public have often stated that they wanted the Railways to be like airlines, well their have their wish apart from no access without a seat, but who knows if they keep on about it........................

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But where is this documented? I would dispute that claim!

Old Timer said:

As for complication, its not really THAT hard if truth be told, although there is still some little way to go with regards to making it easier to FIND those tickets.

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Yes, it is that hard to work out when some tickets are valid. Many guards do not know when tickets are valid! A guard here even stated that many people travel on his trains with tickets that were sold by guards on another company at a time when the ticket is invalid. If the staff don't know, then how are customers supposed to know?!

Old Timer said:

A little while back I gave you a KLM fare structure between AMS and JFK (New York) which had something like 60 odd combinations depending on what flight and what day one travelled.

So why is it acceptable for airlines but not for Railways ? Try it on at check-in that you are travelling earlier/later than the fare you paid and you will be turned away. Perhaps the answer if full barriers and do that ?

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Domestic airlines are only really comparable with long distance travel, such as Newcastle to London. The airline analogy has absolutely nothing to do with a journey such as York to Leeds for example, where the alternative is to drive a car, or get a bus (very frequent and cheap). You can make it very difficult to travel longer distances (and the railways are doing a good job of doing this) without paying through the nose or booking a specific train, but then all people have to do is split the journey into chunks, e.g. London to York is hideously expensive, so you split at Peterborough. No-one would fly from Peterborough - London (110ish miles in 1 hour)

Old Timer said:

I am not wholly convinced that people are genuinely confused. If they are then why do they not ask BEFORE travelling ? Why get on a train and then discover that things aint as they should be ?

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Validity booklets "should" be given out, "where available", yet it is very rare that they are available. The validities are often extremely long and complicated. ATOC do not want us to see the validity codes and restrictions because they know they are so incredibly complicated. The way the railways try to do it, is you say what train you want, then they sell you a ticket (which may in fact not be valid as some staff get it wrong), and tell you it's semi-flexible but don't give you the full restriction text. Then if you get a ticket that appears identical but is to a slightly different place, the average punter assumes the validity is the same, yet it may be completely different! Despite the product masquerading as the same product name.

Old Timer said:

Let me just sign this agreement to buy this car that I do not quite know what make it is or how many doors or if it is really suitable, etc, etc .....Would that happen ? Of course not. The passenger has the ultimate responsibility to correctly state their journey intentions when buying a reduced ticket and then keeping THEIR side of the bargain.

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What about the railways keeping to THEIR side of the bargain? Why is the onus totally on the passenger? Why are passengers considered 'at fault' when rail staff give them incorrect information? The anti-passenger stance on the railways stinks.]

Old Timer said:

No doubt they would be the first to moan if the TOC did not keep their side, but expect to be able to change their side at will and without sanction.

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TOCs often don't keep to their side of the bargain, and when that happens the TOCs may do things like: deny knowledge of the Routeing Guide, lie about restriction codes, etc. Fact.

Old Timer said:

Whenever I have purchased a ticket that is restricted the restrictions have always been made quite clear in straightforward language, why even the MANDATORY seat reservation and the notices printed boldly on the ticket must give one just a little inkling :roll::roll:

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You're talking about Advance tickets. That's rather more clear-cut than the vast range of tickets all claiming to be "Off Peak" yet there are many hundreds of validity codes and they are all different!

Old Timer said:

Personally I think that full fare / unrestricted tickets should be issued on in colour and restricted fares should be on another.

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The TOCs have moved away from different coloured stock!

What colour would "Off Peak" tickets that are valid on any scheduled train be? The unrestricted colour or the restricted colour?

Old Timer said:

I think I would also just simply remove all these special train-tied fares and just let people pay a higher fare for the simplicity of it. The public cannot have their cake and eat it.

If they want cheap fares then they have to expect restrictions. If they don't want restrictions then buy the full fare ticket ??.

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People are not arguing that there should be no restrictions, but the range of restrictions is ludicrous, and it isn't made clear at all.

That enemy of the Railway, the the Consumers Association,has long been a thorn in the side of the Industry and was directly responsible for John Major's completely pointless Passengers Charter :roll:

As with many of these self-appointed champions of the people it was not slow to stoop to some questionable practices some years back, whilst quick to criticise others doing similar.

If you look back over the years the CA has long been pushing for people to be guaranteed a seat even though the legal Contract is for a JOURNEY not a seat.

It is just a shame that BR never took that on and refused access to non seat holders

It is obvious that the myriad of cheap fares is as a result of both TOCs and to an extent the Government pandering to various flavour of the month style "must haves".

In many cases these are mutually incompatible but the whole must have the most for nothing attitude that now pervades our Society has done nothing but harm in many ways. Jobs have gone as manufacturers have gone abroad to seek savings, we are rapidly destroying much of our heritage and resources simply so some pimply dinkys can boast about their latest fad at Hampstead coffee mornings and dinner parties.

There is no realisation in this Country that you get the Railway you pay for. It is not like the latest consumer fad such as cornflakes or coffee that can be continually made cheaper and then replaced by going somewhere else.

As for fare complexity, iIf the staff are confused then either training is inadequate or the fare structure is too complex, in which case lets get back to Day returns, Weekend Returns, 17 Day Returns (Period Returns) and Monthly Returns. Dead simple and allowing TOCs to make some real money.

European Railways do not have such complex fare structures, so there is a comparator at least.

yorkie said:

Validity booklets "should" be given out, "where available", yet it is very rare that they are available. The validities are often extremely long and complicated. ATOC do not want us to see the validity codes and restrictions because they know they are so incredibly complicated. The way the railways try to do it, is you say what train you want, then they sell you a ticket (which may in fact not be valid as some staff get it wrong), and tell you it's semi-flexible but don't give you the full restriction text. Then if you get a ticket that appears identical but is to a slightly different place, the average punter assumes the validity is the same, yet it may be completely different! Despite the product masquerading as the same product name.

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Actually, in terms of Advance tickets then I tend to disagree. Nearly every Advance ticket I see which is ticket office issued (i.e. not booked online or collected from a machine - and there are still a lot of these!) is stapled to clipped to a "Your Advance ticket..." restrictions card. Despite this, people STILL try to use the tickets on different trains. When I point out the restrictions which are actually stapled to their ticket and point out they will have to pay me an extra £xx for the journey I then get the torrent of abuse and loud shouting of "Jobsworth" / "that bloke on the platform said" / "Well I thought it would be ok" / "I didn't realise" / "I never read them" / "Where is your customer service" etc etc etc.

Likewise, with the ones purchased online where the restrictions are clearly printed in the booking process, they STILL try and use them on other trains, and normally try the "I was never told" / "The computer never told me" story. Which is then followed by one of the arguments hightlighted above.

I actually think that restriction cards would be fairly pointless. All they would serve to do is provide some back up to Revenue Staff / Guards etc who are trying the to enforce the myriad of rules - i.e. we can easily say "yes you did know - it says so here". And of course the cards would need to be stapled to the tickets firmly, as failing that all we will get is the "I never got one" excuse (which translates as "I did get one, but chose to ignore it, throw it away and try it on instead").

Virtually nobody seems to read them ones provided now with Advance tickets -even when they are stapledto the ticket - so why you think giving cards out with every ticket will make any difference is quite beyond me.

p.s. - While I am on about it, a similar topic - why do people think we should just let them go for free once they have lost their ticket? A gentleman travelling today had mislaid his return ticket. He showed me his outward portion, but did not have his return. I explained he would have to have a new ticket but he refused to pay. I then had to have a near 15 minute argument with the chap to get him to buy a new ticket, and it was only resolved when some BTP joined the train en-route. All the usual excuses were trotted out, followed by the "can't you just let me off" "it was a genuine mistake" "you can see I brought a return ticket here is the receipt" excuses, which were then followed by the threats of "I want your name and number", "who is your manager" "I'm going to complain" etc etc (these normally get trotted out when someone is close to loosing the argument and they realise you are not going to back down. I think they think that this threat of reporting you will suddenly make you scared of being told off and make you leave them alone). As I pointed out, you don't go into a shop and buy a new pair of jeans, leave them on the bus on the way home, then go back to the shop the next day, say "I've lost those jeans I brought yesterday, here is my receipt" and just expect them to give you a new pair for free do you? No.

kwvr45 said:

p.s. - While I am on about it, a similar topic - why do people think we should just let them go for free once they have lost their ticket?

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Indeed. Had one of those last week. (Yes of course, its MY fault YOU lost YOUR ticket). In the end all you can say is, theres the National Conditions of Carriage, its a new ticket, simple as that.

kwvr45 said:

A gentleman travelling today had mislaid his return ticket. He showed me his outward portion, but did not have his return. I explained he would have to have a new ticket but he refused to pay.

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Best verbal quotes on this problem:

and/or "it seems to be everyone's fault but your own."

Once again, your experience is daily proof that there's always someone "trying it on".

Like the Cheap Day Return restrictions, where people argue for being charged for coming out too early: