Arriva Rail North DOO

Meerkat · 1 Dec 2018

Shaw S Hunter said:
Despite the PTI risk being seen as the highest area of risk to passengers there is no push for these technologies

A cynic might suggest the RMT might block them on the basis they make DOO more likely.....

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Robertj21a · 1 Dec 2018

Tomnick said:
Yes, ASLEF would have to agree too. It needn’t be a big deal. There is some risk involved though, both stopping short and wrong-side releasing.

Amazing that DOO has worked so well - at so many stations - on so very many trains - for so many years to date !!

Tomnick · 1 Dec 2018

Robertj21a said:
Amazing that DOO has worked so well - at so many stations - on so very many trains - for so many years to date !!

It hasn't been perfect though. The increased risk might be relatively small, but it's there - so, if this second member of staff has to be there anyway and has to observe the platform for accessibility purposes, there's a definite benefit and no cost to having them dispatch the train too.

Robertj21a · 1 Dec 2018

Tomnick said:
It hasn't been perfect though. The increased risk might be relatively small, but it's there - so, if this second member of staff has to be there anyway and has to observe the platform for accessibility purposes, there's a definite benefit and no cost to having them dispatch the train too.

This is just repeating the same arguments that have appeared so many times. If there is any real risk (some may disagree) then it appears to be truly minimal. Some might argue that having any 2nd person involved is bound to create the odd misunderstanding - yes, I know we can debate this forever !!

Shaw S Hunter · 1 Dec 2018

Meerkat said:
A cynic might suggest the RMT might block them on the basis they make DOO more likely.....

Not the case. Such equipment was being trialled some time ago on SWT (as was) with guarded 458s. Last I heard the equipment was proving to be unreliable. An update would be most welcome.

Carlisle · 1 Dec 2018

scrapy said:
On what grounds would RMT need or want to present evidence in court? what jurisdiction would a court have if RMT want to them? .

I was referring to the often raised safety concerns about DOO v Conventional operation, if they really exist it shouldn’t be too difficult for the RMT to pursue the industry in court under health & safety law.

pt_mad · 1 Dec 2018

It will be interesting to see what TFN and DFT mean by retaining a second person on all trains. Whether that means rostered, or without exception, or whether they will be OBS or safety critical guards. I guess that's still to be decided. Retain though could mean keep what is already there?

scrapy · 1 Dec 2018

Carlisle said:
I was referring to the often raised safety concerns about DOO v Conventional operation, if they really exist it shouldn’t be too difficult for the RMT to pursue the industry in court under health & safety law.

They couldn't take action against Northern though as they have never ran a DOO train. You can't take action against an industry.

Carlisle · 1 Dec 2018

scrapy said:
They couldn't take action against Northern though as they have never ran a DOO train. .

They’ve had over 35 years to take action against any DOO operating TOC or any relevant predecessors

driver_m · 2 Dec 2018

Robertj21a said:
Amazing that DOO has worked so well - at so many stations - on so very many trains - for so many years to date !!

Or, that the the railway has been lucky so far, and seen no deaths or serious injuries involving a major accident with a DO train..

Meerkat · 2 Dec 2018

For 35 years, and rather a lot of trains......if it isn’t safe that is incredibly lucky!

driver_m · 2 Dec 2018

With the current vogue for passengers to detrain themselves in a failure situation. IMO that is where the next big accident is coming from. Never really been an issue before, but definitely is now .

Ken H · 2 Dec 2018

driver_m said:
With the current vogue for passengers to detrain themselves in a failure situation. IMO that is where the next big accident is coming from. Never really been an issue before, but definitely is now .

people have been detraining for years. It was endemic when we had slam door stock. And on 3rd rail routes.

alansheppard77 · 2 Dec 2018

Meerkat said:
For 35 years, and rather a lot of trains......if it isn’t safe that is incredibly lucky!

i think your fighting a losing battle whatever you say they wont agree,i think they striking for the sake of striking or they want Arriva out

Robertj21a · 2 Dec 2018

driver_m said:
Or, that the the railway has been lucky so far, and seen no deaths or serious injuries involving a major accident with a DO train..

Could be just lucky I suppose. The length of time (and length of the trains !), the frequency of operation, the areas covered, the busiest trains etc etc - all conspire to suggest that it's not just luck, but sheer hard statistics, that indicate the risks are minimal.

Ken H · 2 Dec 2018

I used to use Chiltern a lot. No guard south of Banbury. I wondered how many passengers actually knew there was no guard. I suspect most thought he was sitting in the back cab. Never had my ticket checked south of Banbury either - but most Chiltern stations south of Banbury have gates.

Carlisle · 2 Dec 2018

Has there been a significant accident on a DOO passanger train abroad anywhere in the last 40 years that would have been prevented or significantly reduced by the presence of a guard,? I know we’ve had the runaway freight trains in Canada and Australia, which appear mostly down to not following correct procedure when leaving the train unattended,

driver_m · 2 Dec 2018

alansheppard77 said:
i think your fighting a losing battle whatever you say they wont agree,i think they striking for the sake of striking or they want Arriva out

Is this serious? Striking for the sake of striking?

Intermodal · 2 Dec 2018

driver_m said:
Is this serious? Striking for the sake of striking?

They must love all that money they are losing every month! It must be great standing in the picket line in the rain! alansheppard77 has sussed the whole thing out.

furnessvale · 2 Dec 2018

driver_m said:
Is this serious? Striking for the sake of striking?

No. They are striking to save their jobs. An understandable but ultimately futile activity.

Carlisle · 2 Dec 2018

furnessvale said:
They are striking to save their jobs. An understandable but ultimately futile activity.

Not at all, if the RMT obtains a deal involving guards retaining door controls, meaning a restructuring deal isn’t necessary with ASLEF either, (aside possibly from a very minor tweak at some point permitting driver door release), them they’ll be fairly confident they’ve delayed any further changes for at least another decade or two .

CaptainHaddock · 2 Dec 2018

furnessvale said:
No. They are striking to save their jobs. An understandable but ultimately futile activity.

How much effect have the strikes had on resolving the dispute so far? "Striking for the sake of striking" may be an exaggeration but Northern guards have had the luxury of having every Saturday off for the last 3 months and for most of us poor passengers in the North, enjoying a day out on a Saturday is no longer an option.

Bletchleyite · 2 Dec 2018

Jonfun said:
The thing I'm not getting is TFTN say they don't agree with trains running without a second person; we can realistically assume that to have any hope of passing an OBS role through Northern would have to pay them the same wage as a guard

Isn't it the case that Southern OBS actually earn a fair bit more than their guards did - and the cost saving comes instead from the far more flexible rostering possible when route learning isn't important?

Bletchleyite · 2 Dec 2018

driver_m said:
Most of our pro-dooers on here will be feeling rather deflated that a workforce might have actually been right all along

A victory by the union does not mean that they were right, simply that it is no longer worth Northern and the DfT's while fighting them.

pt_mad · 2 Dec 2018

CaptainHaddock said:
How much effect have the strikes had on resolving the dispute so far? "Striking for the sake of striking" may be an exaggeration but Northern guards have had the luxury of having every Saturday off for the last 3 months and for most of us poor passengers in the North, enjoying a day out on a Saturday is no longer an option.

Maybe an agreement will be made for guards to remain safety critical and have full dispatch duties, based on avoiding any potential ASLEf dispute then. If stakeholders wish to a avoid any further disruption and negative effect on customers.

pt_mad · 2 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
A victory by the union does not mean that they were right, simply that it is no longer worth Northern and the DfT's while fighting them.

And it would mean they were successful in achieving their aim by pressing on dispite many commentators saying full DOO was inevitable no matter how long the strikes went on and it was pointless wouldn't it?

Confused52 · 2 Dec 2018

pt_mad said:
And it would mean they were successful in achieving their aim by pressing on dispite many commentators saying full DOO was inevitable no matter how long the strikes went on and it was pointless wouldn't it?

Or it could just mean that we are condemned to a re-run of this debacle at a later date, a.k.a. kicking the can down the road.

Bletchleyite · 2 Dec 2018

Confused52 said:
Or it could just mean that we are condemned to a re-run of this debacle at a later date, a.k.a. kicking the can down the road.

That is certainly possible. If the next franchise included a full fleet replacement, and if the drivers agreed to it, "doing a Southern" would be quite possible.

furnessvale · 2 Dec 2018

Confused52 said:
Or it could just mean that we are condemned to a re-run of this debacle at a later date, a.k.a. kicking the can down the road.

Meanwhile, Northern and DfT will look for cost savings elsewhere. Sunday service on minor lines anyone?

Ken H · 2 Dec 2018

furnessvale said:
Meanwhile, Northern and DfT will look for cost savings elsewhere. Sunday service on minor lines anyone?

shut ticket offices. easy loss when there is a vending machine.
What can you do at a ticket office you cant do at a TVM?

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