TRIVIA - How many London bus routes are with the original operator post-tendering

MotCO · 2 Dec 2018

LOTS has recently reported that Go-Ahead London Metrobus has won the tender for route 208 starting next summer. This route has been with Stagecoach since the start of tendering in 1987(?).

This made me wonder if there are any routes still with the same operator when the route was first tendered. I'm excluding company take-overs and changes in company ownership - I just want to understand if any routes have been continuously won by the incumbent operator.

The only ones I can think of are routes 353 (renumbered from 357) and 358, both with Metrobus. Are there any others?

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Busaholic · 2 Dec 2018

Off the top of my head, the 124 with Stagecoach at Catford. Catford (TL) has run the route since the beginning of time. Sutton, too, with the 80 or is it the 280, or possibly both? That's London General by the way. I'm certain there are others.

Buggleskelly · 3 Dec 2018

Route 86, Stratford to Romford. Has continually been with Stagecoach London since privatisation along with it’s predecessors going back 60 odd years or so. There are quite a few other routes that have been with Stagecoach since like forever, 247 and 294 come to mind, both also run from NS (Romford) garage. Stagecoach must be doing something right if it’s able to hold on to these routes.

CatfordCat · 3 Dec 2018

tendering started in 1985, but not sure how late it was that the last route went from 'block grant' to tendered.

Routes 80 and 124 (as mentioned above) have the distinction of having been operated by one garage only since they started operation (route 80 in or before 1934 and route 124 in 1938) - fairly sure these are the only two pre 1939 routes that have this feature.

As for routes that have not changed operators since the 80s, there must be quite a lot, particularly the routes that were Routemaster operated until the end of regular operation.

11, 14, 22 - never moved from what's now London General. The 11 and 22 have moved garages a bit, the 14 has had a Putney allocation since Putney Bridge garage closed in 1958.

12, 36 and 63 - never moved from London Central. The 63 has been at Peckham Garage since Nunhead closed in 1954, although Peckham Garage moved locations in 1994.

8 - at what's now Stagecoach East London, and Bow have had an allocation since Clay Hall closed in 1959

47 - at what's now Stagecoach Selkent, and Catford have had an allocation since 1951

All the above detail confirmed via Ian Armstrong's London Bus Routes website.

Conversely, wonder which route has had the most operators? (in terms of contracted operators, not sub-contracted or supplementary operators after a situation like the 185, or on underground strike days)

Route 188 must be a contender -

London Central to 1988
Boro' Line until they went under
Selkent
London and Country (then within Cowie / British Bus / Arriva to South London, London North)
London General / Central
Travel London / Abellio
London General / Central again

Mutant Lemming · 3 Dec 2018

There are quite a few - the site below details all of them.....

https://www.londonbuses.co.uk/menus/rl001-100.html

The 240 has been with Metroline since tendering.

Mikey C · 3 Dec 2018

The 38 and 73 (Arriva) both spring to mind

Wirewiper · 3 Dec 2018

The 388 has been with CT Plus ever since the route commenced in January 2003 - it was part of the increase in services ahead of the Congestion Charge.

Busaholic · 3 Dec 2018

CatfordCat said:
tendering started in 1985, but not sure how late it was that the last route went from 'block grant' to tendered.

Routes 80 and 124 (as mentioned above) have the distinction of having been operated by one garage only since they started operation (route 80 in or before 1934 and route 124 in 1938) - fairly sure these are the only two pre 1939 routes that have this feature.

As for routes that have not changed operators since the 80s, there must be quite a lot, particularly the routes that were Routemaster operated until the end of regular operation.

11, 14, 22 - never moved from what's now London General. The 11 and 22 have moved garages a bit, the 14 has had a Putney allocation since Putney Bridge garage closed in 1958.

12, 36 and 63 - never moved from London Central. The 63 has been at Peckham Garage since Nunhead closed in 1954, although Peckham Garage moved locations in 1994.

8 - at what's now Stagecoach East London, and Bow have had an allocation since Clay Hall closed in 1959

47 - at what's now Stagecoach Selkent, and Catford have had an allocation since 1951

All the above detail confirmed via Ian Armstrong's London Bus Routes website.

Conversely, wonder which route has had the most operators? (in terms of contracted operators, not sub-contracted or supplementary operators after a situation like the 185, or on underground strike days)

Route 188 must be a contender -

London Central to 1988
Boro' Line until they went under
Selkent
London and Country (then within Cowie / British Bus / Arriva to South London, London North)
London General / Central
Travel London / Abellio
London General / Central again

I'm convinced the 188 has proved so problematic for a succession of different companies because for what is, or has been in the recent past, a relatively long route, timewise at least, it doesn't pass near any bus garages. I'll expand slightly on that last point, as pedants raise their quills to counter, by saying that Waterloo doesn't count as it'd be unable to operate the sort of buses required on the route, and Kings Cross, a relatively recent garage, only started operating double deckers at a time when the 188 was about to be cut back from that terminus (no, I haven't looked up the relevant dates). Chalk Farm would have been ideal (a) if it hadn't closed a while back and (b) the route still reached Chalk Farm Station. Elephant and Castle, or Bricklayer's Arms, both used for crew reliefs over the years, have been far from ideal for that purpose. I've posted before on here how, in RT crew days, a 188 was towed away by the police from one of those locations, I can't remember which now. Not an apocryphal story, it featured in Traffic News when I worked for LT.

Hophead · 3 Dec 2018

Pedantically speaking, those routes currently (and at initial tendering) operated by Stagecoach spent a period of time under different ownership (Macquarrie Bank, if memory serves).

Busaholic · 3 Dec 2018

Hophead said:
Pedantically speaking, those routes currently (and at initial tendering) operated by Stagecoach spent a period of time under different ownership (Macquarrie Bank, if memory serves).

Yes, but under the same contracts, just as First contracts were 'novated' (if that is the correct word) to Thames Transit for the garages taken over.

MotCO · 3 Dec 2018

Hophead said:
Pedantically speaking, those routes currently (and at initial tendering) operated by Stagecoach spent a period of time under different ownership (Macquarrie Bank, if memory serves).

Sorry - my initial post indicated that company takeovers should be discounted.

(As an aside, I can't remember whether Macquarrie operated it as Stagecoach, or whether they reverted to East London and Selkent)

Hophead · 3 Dec 2018

MotCO said:
Sorry - my initial post indicated that company takeovers should be discounted. (As an aside, I can't remember whether Macquarrie operated it as Stagecoach, or whether they reverted to East London and Selkent)

The latter, I think.

CatfordCat · 3 Dec 2018

Busaholic said:
I'm convinced the 188 has proved so problematic for a succession of different companies because for what is, or has been in the recent past, a relatively long route, timewise at least, it doesn't pass near any bus garages.

Indeed - some bus routes are a very good fit for some garages, or just don't fit at any other (although passing the door is no guarantee of winning the next contract, as - for example - Metrobus's foray on to route 54, or Go Ahead picking up the 5 show) Sometimes a garage at (or just off) one end of a route is not ideal, as you can get a route where drivers can only do one round trip at a time within a legal driving spell, but just doing two round trips doesn't make for an adequate day's work.

The 188 has always been 'remote' - when it was tram 68 it was run from New Cross, with trams joining / leaving line of route either at Greenwich or Bricklayers Arms. I'm not sure where they did change-overs in those days. Think it has changed over (in the 80s) at Waterloo as well - when what's now Go Ahead's Waterloo base was a bus park with a canteen.

Although I think it's fair to say that Boro' Line's troubles were more than just the 188...

MotCO said:
As an aside, I can't remember whether Macquarrie operated it as Stagecoach, or whether they reverted to East London and Selkent

definitely re-branded as East London and Selkent - although traces of the Stagecoach identity (seating moquette at least) were still there when Stagecoach took it back. They pretty much revived the pre-Stagecoach logos. Picture (Wikipedia) of Selkent bus under Maquarie ownership here

Mikey C · 4 Dec 2018

CatfordCat said:
Indeed - some bus routes are a very good fit for some garages, or just don't fit at any other (although passing the door is no guarantee of winning the next contract, as - for example - Metrobus's foray on to route 54, or Go Ahead picking up the 5 show) Sometimes a garage at (or just off) one end of a route is not ideal, as you can get a route where drivers can only do one round trip at a time within a legal driving spell, but just doing two round trips doesn't make for an adequate day's work.

Yes, the 28, 31, and then the 28, 31, 328 routes seemed embedded together and wedded to Westbourne Park garage (which is very conveniently on all 3 routes), so it came as a surprise to me when Metroline won the 31!

90sWereBetter · 4 Dec 2018

Pretty sure the 23 has always been at Westbourne Park since tendering, while in North London trunk routes like the 41, 102, 144, 243 have stayed with Leaside/Arriva, such is their dominance in this area.

Towielad · 4 Dec 2018

Mikey C said:
The 38 and 73 (Arriva) both spring to mind

Hi

73 was a Leaside route prior to tendering 38 wasn’t, it was a London Forest (Forest Discrict before that) route only going to Leaside as an indirect result of tendering off large swathes of London Forest’s other work

Statto · 4 Dec 2018

6 Willesden depot, but has been jointly operated by other depots with Willesden, when it was a cross London route
16 has always had a Cricklewood allocation, & still Cricklewood operated route, again like the 6 other depots have had a joint operation on the 16
82 Victoria-North Finchley, was at Finchley then moved to Potters Bar when Finchley closed[hate to think of how long it took for recovery should a breakdown occur in Central London when it operated from BP], until the 82 was replaced by the 13 early last year.

Keith Jarrett · 4 Dec 2018

Busaholic said:
Off the top of my head, the 124 with Stagecoach at Catford. Catford (TL) has run the route since the beginning of time. Sutton, too, with the 80 or is it the 280, or possibly both? That's London General by the way. I'm certain there are others.

As well as the 80, I'm sure other Sutton routes qualify such as 93, 151 and 154

Busaholic · 4 Dec 2018

Statto said:
6 Willesden depot, but has been jointly operated by other depots with Willesden, when it was a cross London route
16 has always had a Cricklewood allocation, & still Cricklewood operated route, again like the 6 other depots have had a joint operation on the 16
82 Victoria-North Finchley, was at Finchley then moved to Potters Bar when Finchley closed[hate to think of how long it took for recovery should a breakdown occur in Central London when it operated from BP], until the 82 was replaced by the 13 early last year.

I'm so old I can remember GM (Victoria, Gillingham Street) buses on the 16 but, about from gradually being chopped off beyond Cricklewood, it's the least changed major route in terms of the combination of routeing and garage allocation in my opinion: the 24 has had so many changes of operators and garages in recent years.

Busaholic · 4 Dec 2018

Keith Jarrett said:
As well as the 80, I'm sure other Sutton routes qualify such as 93, 151 and 154

The 93 and 154 have both had several other garages operating them. Not sure about the old 151 without looking it up, but did AL work it too?

Busaholic · 4 Dec 2018

Mikey C said:
Yes, the 28, 31, and then the 28, 31, 328 routes seemed embedded together and wedded to Westbourne Park garage (which is very conveniently on all 3 routes), so it came as a surprise to me when Metroline won the 31!

The 28 was always an X route, when that code represented North Kensington Middle Row, but the 31 wasn't in those days, coming out of Chalk Farm and Battersea at each end of the route. Consequently, the service at the Camden Town end of the route always suffered when the 31 was in chaos (quite common) as Battersea (B) buses routinely got turned at Belsize Road or Swiss Cottage: I expect the same happened at the Chelsea end, but I wasn't there to see it.

Mwanesh · 4 Dec 2018

Busaholic said:
Yes, but under the same contracts, just as First contracts were 'novated' (if that is the correct word) to Thames Transit for the garages taken over.

Tower Transit i think.Thames Transit is Stagecoach in Oxford.

Busaholic · 5 Dec 2018

Mwanesh said:
Tower Transit i think.Thames Transit is Stagecoach in Oxford.

Indeed - thank you.

317 forever · 12 Jan 2019

A few I can think of include:-

Arriva 2, 29, 38, 50, 73, 102, 149, 250,253, 264

Go-Ahead 12, 21, 36, 80, 88, 93, 163, 164

Metroline 6, 17, 32, 98, 113, 186, 240

RATP 9, 94, 111, 220, 267, 281

Stagecoach 8, 47, 53, 86, 122, 124, 247, 277, 294.

As regards post #15, route 41 had been joint LBL Leaside / London Northern, was then lost to London Suburban Buses, but then after the company was taken over by MTL they dropped route 41 and it was novated to Cowie Leaside, now Arriva.

Busaholic · 12 Jan 2019

317 forever said:
A few I can think of include:-

Arriva 2, 29, 38, 50, 73, 102, 149, 250,253, 264

Go-Ahead 12, 21, 36, 80, 88, 93, 163, 164

Metroline 6, 17, 32, 98, 113, 186, 240

RATP 9, 94, 111, 220, 267, 281

Stagecoach 8, 47, 53, 86, 122, 124, 247, 277, 294.

As regards post #15, route 41 had been joint LBL Leaside / London Northern, was then lost to London Suburban Buses, but then after the company was taken over by MTL they dropped route 41 and it was novated to Cowie Leaside, now Arriva.

What about Metroline 16?

317 forever · 13 Jan 2019

Busaholic said:
What about Metroline 16?

True, but I was specifically only listing a few I thought of. Route 32 has similarly always been Metroline.

700007 · 13 Jan 2019

CT Plus and 394 spring to mind.

I was going to suggest the 223 but that's just passed to London Sovereign as of late, something I am not too keen of. I think 224 as well had been at ON this whole time until it went to RP.

PeterC · 13 Jan 2019

Buggleskelly said:
Route 86, Stratford to Romford. Has continually been with Stagecoach London since privatisation along with it’s predecessors going back 60 odd years or so. There are quite a few other routes that have been with Stagecoach since like forever, 247 and 294 come to mind, both also run from NS (Romford) garage. Stagecoach must be doing something right if it’s able to hold on to these routes.

Operating services from NS does give a competitive advantage for services in the Romford area considering the location of the garage.

To digress slightly is the garage officially called "Romford" now? It used to be "North Street (Romford)".

Wirewiper · 14 Jan 2019

700007 said:
CT Plus and 394 spring to mind. <snip>

CT Plus has retained most of the routes it has picked up since it started operating TfL contracted routes in 2001. Its main losses have been the 153 (the first route it ever picked up, lost last year to Go-Ahead) and the 212 which it had only from 2010 to 2015 (now with Tower Transit).

The 394 actually started life as a non-TfL route, The Shoreditch Hoppa, in September 2001 and used a pair a blue Renault minibuses. TfL took on responsibility for the route in May 2003 when it was doubled in frequency (x30 to x15) and extended from Broadway Market to Homerton Hospital.

TRIVIA - How many London bus routes are with the original operator post-tendering

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