Mismatch photocard and ticket - error when ticket was issued

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

Interesting situation has occurred to someone I know.

They have been commuting for many years with an annual season ticket.

This year, as they were going to be away for a several weeks shortly after their annual ticket expired they decided to buy a monthly ticket to tide them over to their holiday and then buy the annual ticket afterwards.

They bought the monthly ticket, no problems. However a week later it was identified that the photocard number and the photocard number on the ticket did not match.

Result is the ticket and photocard have been confiscated and investigations are underway.

How on earth could the ticket office have issued a ticket to the wrong photocard? The ticketholder doesn't know the photocard holder - the railway company (probably in breach of all sorts of data protection laws) disclosed who it belonged to and it belongs to someone who lives in a different town.

My recollection from buying season tickets is the barcode on the photocard is scanned to bring up your details when you want to buy a season ticket. Surely there is error checking to prevent mistakes in scanning. Similarly if the number is entered manually, surely there are check digits to prevent miskeys.

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robbeech · 3 Dec 2018

Unfortunately a human being has been involved here and somehow a mistake has occurred. Staff have followed the correct protocol when this was confiscated.
There shouldn’t be long term problems if you can work out when this was issued and trace back a transaction. They should also refund any additional tickets you've had to buy.

You’re quite right about the details of the other person, they should not have been disclosed to you.

bb21 · 3 Dec 2018

It is not unheard of for tickets to be issued with the wrong Photocard number, out by a digit or two, and prosecution teams would have seen this before so I don't anticipate that to be an issue for the customer if it were the case once explained and investigated.

I find it highly suspicious if the whole number was wrong and there was no resemblance to the number on the actual Photocard used at the time of purchase, or any parts of it.

The only remote possibility is if there was a change of Photocard between issues, and the most recent ticket was sold without the Photocard number being altered in the database. Highly unlikely though but I guess it is possible, so one possible line of attack I would imagine would be to check if the number matched any other Photocard your friend might have had in the past. But as you say the Photocard apparently belonged to someone else...

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

robbeech said:
There shouldn’t be long term problems if you can work out when this was issued and trace back a transaction. They should also refund any additional tickets you've had to buy.

Sure, but the person involved has been quite upset by the mistake, and has been put to the inconvenience of needing to pay for tickets in the interim.

bb21 said:
I find it highly suspicious if the whole number was wrong and there was no resemblance to the number on the actual Photocard used at the time of purchase, or any parts of it.

I do not know how close or not the number on the ticket was to their photocard, whether it was one letter or digit out or the whole thing. I would guess the former rather than the latter, but can find out.

However surely the system is designed with a check digit, so if someone miskeys the photocard number it results in an error message? i.e. if the photocard number was ABC1234A but was entered as ABC1233A it wouldn't be accepted, rather than both being valid (and issued) photocard numbers.

robbeech · 3 Dec 2018

webbthecobweb said:
Sure, but the person involved has been quite upset by the mistake, and has been put to the inconvenience of needing to pay for tickets in the interim

Agreed, but it is recommended that one checks a ticket when it is issued.

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

robbeech said:
Agreed, but it is recommended that one checks a ticket when it is issued.

Sure, but shouldn't also the ticket seller check before handing over the ticket.

Especially if there is nothing in the system to catch mistakes.

Jim Jehosofat · 3 Dec 2018

But there is something in the system to catch mistakes and your friend is currently on the recieving end of said system.

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

Jim Jehosofat said:
But there is something in the system to catch mistakes and your friend is currently on the recieving end of said system.

So there is nothing to stop miskeys and both ABC1234A and ABC1233A could be valid photocard numbers.

Astonishing.

Bletchleyite · 3 Dec 2018

robbeech said:
Agreed, but it is recommended that one checks a ticket when it is issued.

Very true anywhere. "Check your change, as mistakes cannot be rectified afterwards".

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Very true anywhere. "Check your change, as mistakes cannot be rectified afterwards".

Sure, but there were two mistakes here. One by the professional, the train company employee selling the ticket, and one by the customer who trusted the train company employee was doing their job correctly.

And in this case hopefully the train company will agree that their member of staff cocked up and will resolve the problem and refund.

Is it too much to hope that they might make some expression of gratitude to the customer who has been inconvenienced and had to pay twice as it has brought a staff training need to their attention? - Failure to key the photocard correctly and failure to check the ticker before handing it over seems to be pretty poor.

robbeech · 3 Dec 2018

webbthecobweb said:
Sure, but the person involved has been quite upset by the mistake, and has been put to the inconvenience of needing to pay for tickets in the interim

If your friend forgot their season ticket one day as a genuine mistake would they expect the railway to let them off and would they cause a fuss if they ended up being prosecuted? Perhaps the answer is no but there are certainly a number of people who would like things to work in their favour in both scenarios.

*post edited to quote the correct post*

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

robbeech said:
If your friend forgot their season ticket one day as a genuine mistake would they expect the railway to let them off and would they cause a fuss if they ended up being prosecuted? Perhaps the answer is no but there are certainly a number of people who would like things to work in their favour in both scenarios.

Sorry but I really don't understand what you are getting at.

Most systems that deal with ID numbers have a check digit check to prevent miskeys - Driving Licence, National Insurance Number, Credit Card Number, etc, etc.

I really don't understand why you should respond as you have when asking quite reasonably whether such a system exists with photocards and checking when the surprising response was that there was no such check.

robbeech · 3 Dec 2018

I am referring to your earlier post where you mention about how your friend has been put to the inconvenience of purchases tickets for their travel.

Unfortunately I don’t know how the numbers work but I’m sure someone here will do.

I appreciate that it is an annoyance and it appears that the railway has made an error here. I’m sure that by supplying the information to them including details of the payment then this problem will be rectified. It would be nice if a gesture of good will was also made.

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

robbeech said:
I am referring to your earlier post where you mention about how your friend has been put to the inconvenience of purchases tickets for their travel.

Then you could have expressed it better.

I don't think there is any comparison between a person who has been threatened with prosecution because of their mistake in noy having their ticket and a person being threatened with prosecution because they foolishly trusted a train company employee to do their job properly.

robbeech said:
Unfortunately I don’t know how the numbers work but I’m sure someone here will do.

At the moment we seem to be in 'nobody knows' teratory.

robbeech said:
I appreciate that it is an annoyance and it appears that the railway has made an error here. I’m sure that by supplying the information to them including details of the payment then this problem will be rectified. It would be nice if a gesture of good will was also made.

It would be.

Darandio · 3 Dec 2018

webbthecobweb said:
I don't think there is any comparison between a person who has been threatened with prosecution because of their mistake in noy having their ticket and a person being threatened with prosecution because they foolishly trusted a train company employee to do their job properly.

I also don't think there is any comparison when talking about a railway photocard with a Driving Licence, National Insurance Number or Credit Card Number. But maybe it's just me.

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

Darandio said:
I also don't think there is any comparison when talking about a railway photocard with a Driving Licence, National Insurance Number or Credit Card Number. But maybe it's just me.

Those were simply examples.

Do you not think a photo card number should have a check digit to prevent miskeys occurring?

Surreytraveller · 3 Dec 2018

webbthecobweb said:
Those were simply examples.

Do you not think a photo card number should have a check digit to prevent miskeys occurring?

Do any season tickets get handwritten photocard numbers on them these days? Last time I worked in a ticket office all photocard numbers were hand written onto tickets, so check digits wouldn't have been of any use. There will still be plenty of photocards in circulation from this era.

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

Surreytraveller said:
Do any season tickets get handwritten photocard numbers on them these days? Last time I worked in a ticket office all photocard numbers were hand written onto tickets, so check digits wouldn't have been of any use. There will still be plenty of photocards in circulation from this era.

Even if handwritten it would still identify a ticket completed incorrectly by the ticket office from a ticket issued to another photo card being used with a different photo card.

Surreytraveller · 3 Dec 2018

webbthecobweb said:
Even if handwritten it would still identify a ticket completed incorrectly by the ticket office from a ticket issued to another photo card being used with a different photo card.

Yes. But what I'm saying is, if there are a lot of older photocards out there from the days before computers were involved in printing photocard numbers on season tickets, then you cannot have a system in place involving check digits unless you recall all the older photocards, or require people to obtain new photocards when they next renew their season ticket

snail · 3 Dec 2018

I've still got my old photocard from those days. Four things to check when getting a new season ticket:
1. Departure station
2. Destination station
3. Expiry date
4. Photocard number

Check digits wouldn't solve the first three items. Yes, it shouldn't happen but there has to be some responsibility on the buyer to check the details are correct.

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

Surreytraveller said:
Yes. But what I'm saying is, if there are a lot of older photocards out there from the days before computers were involved in printing photocard numbers on season tickets, then you cannot have a system in place involving check digits unless you recall all the older photocards, or require people to obtain new photocards when they next renew their season ticket

Of course you can, it just requires it to be incorporated into the system that generates the photo card number. How that number is entered onto the ticket is irrelevant.

If the photo card has a check digit then writing the wrong number on will still show that is what had happened, and not that it is being used with a different photo card.

webbthecobweb · 3 Dec 2018

snail said:
I've still got my old photocard from those days. Four things to check when getting a new season ticket:
1. Departure station
2. Destination station
3. Expiry date
4. Photocard number

Check digits wouldn't solve the first three items. Yes, it shouldn't happen but there has to be some responsibility on the buyer to check the details are correct.

I don't disagree there is some responsibility with the purchaser, although most lies with the retailer, however it just seems surprising the system is not designed to prevent such errors.

robbeech · 3 Dec 2018

Perhaps it is.
Perhaps for reasons unknown the wrong number was put in that just happens to be another photocard Number. Check digits can only do so much.
I don’t know how the computers work but is it possible there was a need to use the clipboard on a previous transaction?

Hadders · 3 Dec 2018

webbthecobweb said:
Do you not think a photo card number should have a check digit to prevent miskeys occurring?

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before and the reason they don't is that there are very many photocards still in circulation from the days before barcodes and check digits were around.

AntoniC · 4 Dec 2018

My annual Merseyside All Zones Trio (Paper pass) has the ticket number manually written onto the ticket .
(It has my photo on it).

Typhoon · 4 Dec 2018

webbthecobweb said:
However surely the system is designed with a check digit, so if someone miskeys the photocard number it results in an error message? i.e. if the photocard number was ABC1234A but was entered as ABC1233A it wouldn't be accepted, rather than both being valid (and issued) photocard numbers.

There are different algorithms used to generate a check digit and all (I think I can say without argument) would detect that one as well as transposition errors (ACB1234A or ABC1432A). Once you get into more sophisticated errors (ABC4032A instead of ABC1432A) and double errors (ACB1432A) and combinations (ACB4032A) as well as clumsy fingers and misreading of letters for numbers (O and 0, 1 and I) if there is no set pattern, there is a remote chance that the check digit will fail to detect a miss keying. I don't know long a photocard number is, but the numbers on my last rail ticket are pretty long. The longer the entry the more chance of error (yes, the bleeding obvious).
I am afraid neither humans or machines are perfect although the case is often made that they are.

[.n] · 4 Dec 2018

snail said:
I've still got my old photocard from those days. Four things to check when getting a new season ticket:
1. Departure station
2. Destination station
3. Expiry date
4. Photocard number

Check digits wouldn't solve the first three items. Yes, it shouldn't happen but there has to be some responsibility on the buyer to check the details are correct.

I wonder how you the the fifth bit of information required on issuing a season ticket, which is your name, as far as I can tell (looking at my ticket), this is not reprinted back onto ticket that you receive (or the receipt)

swt_passenger · 4 Dec 2018

Hadders said:
I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before and the reason they don't is that there are very many photocards still in circulation from the days before barcodes and check digits were around.

SWT ran a campaign to withdraw old photo cards a few years back, and swap in the barcoded style. The format of mine is “ABC 12345” with a space between letters and numbers. Presumably if someone has access to a pile of blanks they’ll be able to tell if they are just printed in numerical sequence?
Maybe some other TOCs proactively withdrew some cards but I doubt it would have been that effective.

maniacmartin · 5 Dec 2018

I've been issued a season ticket with two digits in my photocard swapped in the past, so either there is no check digit or I just got unlucky in that case. In my case no member of staff ever noticed the discrepancy during the season's entire validity period.

Also even though new photocard stock has barcodes, some staff still key in the photocard number manually. Maybe they aren't all issued with barcode scanners?

As to original problem in the thread, I don't know much about the TIS interfaces out there, but could it be possible that the TIS already had the photocard of the previous customer keyed in? It's common at certain times of day, such as Monday mornings, for there to be a succession of different people buying season tickets in a row.

robbeech · 5 Dec 2018

maniacmartin said:
Also even though new photocard stock has barcodes, some staff still key in the photocard number manually. Maybe they aren't all issued with barcode scanners?

I think they vary by station. For example at Worksop they’ve had a new one in the last 12 months but it doesn’t scan things like season tickets. Or RTV. They have to manually put in all numbers. And that really annoys people waiting in the queue behind when I buy a season ticket with RTV.

Mismatch photocard and ticket - error when ticket was issued

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