Stansted to Norwich - London stamp

Owen · 7 Dec 2018

I have booked a Stansted to Norwich, advance ticket. On the ticket it says “Stowmarket to Norwich”, with the London Cross stamped on it.

The booking is Stansted to Cambridge to Stowmarket to Norwich.

Does this mean that I can go Stansted to London to Norwich instead? If not, why is the Stamp on the ticket?

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ForTheLoveOf · 7 Dec 2018

Owen said:
I have booked a Stansted to Norwich, advance ticket. On the ticket it says “Stowmarket to Norwich”, with the London Cross stamped on it.

The booking is Stansted to Cambridge to Stowmarket to Norwich.

Does this mean that I can go Stansted to London to Norwich instead? If not, why is the Stamp on the ticket?

Can you take a picture of the ticket (leaving out the bottom part which includes your pickup reference)?

Owen · 7 Dec 2018

Sure: https://i.imgur.com/DrIo0pX.jpg

yorkie · 7 Dec 2018

Owen said:
I have booked a Stansted to Norwich, advance ticket. On the ticket it says “Stowmarket to Norwich”, with the London Cross stamped on it.

The booking is Stansted to Cambridge to Stowmarket to Norwich.

Does this mean that I can go Stansted to London to Norwich instead? If not, why is the Stamp on the ticket?

If you had specified via London when booking you would have been offered itineraries via London.

It is valid on non-reserveable appropriate connecting services between Stansted to Stowmarket, then by the booked service from Stowmarket to Norwich.

But good luck finding a non-reserveable service from London to Stowmarket!

Owen · 7 Dec 2018

It did provide itineraries but I selected the Cambridge one. I am just wondering why it has the London symbol on it if it is not valid to go via there?

eastdyke · 7 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
But good luck finding a non-reserveable service from London to Stowmarket!

The Liverpool Street - Ipswich hourly stoppers are non-reservable. Then either an Ipswich-Cambridge or Ipswich-Peterborough as far as Stowmarket.

ForTheLoveOf · 7 Dec 2018

Owen said:
It did provide itineraries but I selected the Cambridge one. I am just wondering why it has the London symbol on it if it is not valid to go via there?

It's valid there, subject to the usual rules of validity for Advances, namely:

You must take any train you were given a reservation for (unless delays prevent this);
You must take 'appropriate' non-reservable services for all other legs of the journey.

Appropriate means you can't take a train 6 hours earlier than necessary just because you fancy using the station facilities at Liverpool Street, for example.

You can see whether or not a particular service is reservable by either looking it up in the National Rail Timetable, generating a personalised timetable on National Rail Enquiries, or using a third party site such as Real Time Trains (which will explicitly tell you if a train is reservable).

In practice, it is probable that you wouldn't have too much hassle if you travel via what might be considered by the average person as a 'reasonable' route for the unreserved legs of your journey (even if this actually ends up taking you on reservable services).

That being said, I would try and avoid reservable services for unreserved legs of your journey.

Owen · 7 Dec 2018

So can I take that route or not? I am Northern Irish and have travelled on this route via Ely plenty of times but have never done it when there are Engineering works.

I don't really know what you mean by Unreserved trains.

ForTheLoveOf · 7 Dec 2018

Owen said:
So can I take that route or not? I am Northern Irish and have travelled on this route via Ely plenty of times but have never done it when there are Engineering works.

You can travel via either Ely or London - just, you are supposed to use unreservable services (such as the Stansted Express, the stopping train to Ipswich and so on - see this post).

Owen · 7 Dec 2018

So what then about from Stowmarket onwards? This is quite a mess. Which service would be best from London Liverpool Street in terms of getting a seat?

ForTheLoveOf · 7 Dec 2018

Owen said:
So what then about from Stowmarket onwards? This is quite a mess.

From Stowmarket you should take the service you have been reserved on.

It's obviously not very customer friendly, and the potential 'punishments' for not understanding the arcane rules are very unfair. But unfortunately this is the way the system works...

Owen · 7 Dec 2018

Ok I don't want to get caught out. I might just book the service from to Norwich to London. I am not worried about the Stansted Express because it has no conductor.

The train tickets in GB are convoluted and not easy to understand.

yorkie · 7 Dec 2018

eastdyke said:
The Liverpool Street - Ipswich hourly stoppers are non-reservable. Then either an Ipswich-Cambridge or Ipswich-Peterborough as far as Stowmarket.

So you had in mind, instead of taking the suggested 2110 service as per the original itinerary, the customer could reasonably argue the following are appropriate connecting services...

Stansted 1900
Liverpool St 1947

Liverpool St 2002
Ipswich 2128

Ipswich 2219
Stowmarket 2235

Well, maybe, but I am not sure I would recommend making that argument.

Owen said:
So what then about from Stowmarket onwards?

Your booked train only.

Owen said:
This is quite a mess.

When you book an Advance ticket, you can get almost any valid itinerary you want, but it is recommended to obtain your intended itinerary at the time of booking rather than argue a huge deviation is valid after purchase.

Owen said:
Which service would be best from London Liverpool Street in terms of getting a seat?

I don't think you'd have much choice other than the 2002; I do not know your chances of getting a seat. Staff might argue it's not valid as your itinerary was supposed to be on the 2110 from Stansted to Stowmarket.

Owen said:
The train tickets in GB are convoluted and not easy to understand.

If you want flexibility, get an Anytime or Off Peak ticket

Advance tickets are rather like airline tickets; you get the trains that are specified in your itinerary (unless delays occur).

So it's no more complicated than an airline ticket.

The rail industry does offer some flexibility in terms of your connecting service from Stansted to Stowmarket, but I do not see how that can be seen as adding complexity. I guess they could be stricter and say you had to get the specific connecting service on your itinerary, to match the strict conditions of airline tickets, if air passengers felt that would make things simpler. I'd be careful what you wish for

Owen · 7 Dec 2018

No one has answered why it has the London stamp on it though.

methethpropbut · 7 Dec 2018

I feel like this ticket was never meant to be issued in this manner but instead used for journeys that go Stansted - London - Norwich which rightly display the London Cross.
Nonetheless it seems like we stumble upon a bit of an edge case here, in that Stansted - Cambridge - Stowmarket - Norwich is a valid route for the ticket and picks up said reservable train on the Stowmarket - Norwich leg... and the system isn't smart enough to pick it out, and here we are.

As for you, I'd say it's probably best to stick to the booked itinerary - can't go wrong there, eh?

eastdyke · 7 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
So you had in mind, instead of taking the suggested 2110 service as per the original itinerary, the customer could reasonably argue the following are appropriate connecting services...

Stansted 1900
Liverpool St 1947

Liverpool St 2002
Ipswich 2128

Ipswich 2219
Stowmarket 2235

Well, maybe, but I am not sure I would recommend making that argument.

Quite, just that an itinerary is theoretically possible.
The via Cambridge itinerary as booked gives just 6 minutes connection time at Cambridge which should be ok.
An hour to wait if there is any disruption but still able to reach Norwich via a later service from Stowmarket.

methethpropbut · 7 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
So you had in mind, instead of taking the suggested 2110 service as per the original itinerary, the customer could reasonably argue the following are appropriate connecting services...

Stansted 1900
Liverpool St 1947

Liverpool St 2002
Ipswich 2128

Ipswich 2219
Stowmarket 2235

The amazing thing is that by using a site like trainsplit, and setting London Liverpool Street, Hatfield Peverel and Needham Market as calling points, I seem to be able to do just that:

(image above gives the aforementioned itinerary on trainsplit with a £9.10 advance single on the 15th of December 2018)

Which should produce exactly the same ticket, albeit on a more convoluted route...

Edge cases are fun. And weird.

Haywain · 8 Dec 2018

Owen said:
No one has answered why it has the London stamp on it though.

Because it is valid for travel via London when it is issued in conjunction with an appropriate itinerary. You selected travelling via Cambridge so the cross London symbol is not relevant, but it is in the ticket data and is printed on the ticket regardless of the itinerary.

MichaelAMW · 8 Dec 2018

Owen said:
No one has answered why it has the London stamp on it though.

It's not a "London stamp". It's the cross-London marker. It means that **IF** you travel via London then you may cross London between termini by Underground at no additional cost. It doesn't mean you **MUST** go via London - or, indeed, that you **MUST** go on the Underground. Stansted to Norwich Advance tickets are able to be used in some circumstances via London, so this possibility is included in the route information. Your ticket has an itinerary that does not include London so the Maltese Cross marker is irrelevant.

Starmill · 8 Dec 2018

Owen said:
Ok I don't want to get caught out. I might just book the service from to Norwich to London. I am not worried about the Stansted Express because it has no conductor.

This doesn't mean that an inspection of tickets on the train is unlikely.

Not that at you would have a problem presenting this ticket, of course, if you were travelling at an appropriate time.

Clip · 8 Dec 2018

Owen said:
No one has answered why it has the London stamp on it though.

No idea but why not just stick to the itinerary that has been issued you to you - this seems the easiest way to do things surely?

yorkie · 8 Dec 2018

methethpropbut said:
The amazing thing is that by using a site like trainsplit, and setting London Liverpool Street, Hatfield Peverel and Needham Market as calling points, I seem to be able to do just that:

(image above gives the aforementioned itinerary on trainsplit with a £9.10 advance single on the 15th of December 2018)

Which should produce exactly the same ticket, albeit on a more convoluted route...

Edge cases are fun. And weird.

Yes it's a valid itinerary ; the ticket is valid via London.

But Advance fares are meant to be used for the itinerary that was originally booked.

There are allowances for taking different "connecting" services where "appropriate".

We have a plane passenger who presumably is used to the concept of a booked service only ticket who has booked an itinerary they wish to substantially deviate from. This rail fare is no more complex than the air fare to Stansted .

The only difference is - unlike some air fares that allow connecting flights - there is some leeway over the connecting service.

If sir passengers wish to campaign to have that leeway removed for consistency with air fares to make things simple, that's their perogative. But I don't agree that allowing a bit of leeway makes things complicated.

The passenger can change their travel plans for a £10 admin fee. What time does the flight (from Belfast?) arrive?

The passenger could attempt to use the itinerary above and argue that these are appropriate connecting services, but it's really pushing the boundaries to depart over 2 hours earlier and use a completely different route to the original contract.

Silverdale · 8 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
The passenger could attempt to use the itinerary above and argue that these are appropriate connecting services, but it's really pushing the boundaries to depart over 2 hours earlier and use a completely different route to the original contract.

Whether particular connecting services are appropriate or not will vary depending on the origin, destination and required booked services and it's arguable whether the via London route uses appropriate connecting services or not. But if it's established that the via London itinerary does pass that test, the validity of the ticket itself can't then further depend on the itinerary against which it was sold.

As @methethpropbut points out, irrespective of whether it is purchased against an itinerary which is via London or via Cambridge, the Stansted - Norwich ticket itself is the same, with the same restrictions and required booked service. The passenger isn't obliged to produce an itinerary to validate their ticket, so as long as both itineraries use appropriate connecting services, the passenger must be free to choose which one they use, regardless of the one they were offered when they purchased.

methethpropbut · 8 Dec 2018

Cheers @yorkie and @Silverdale for your thoughts and insight. I reserve my comment on whether such a deviation from the itinerary is appropriate or not (I don't like the subjectives!) and I hope I have been sufficiently careful with my words (different itineraries ⇒ producing the same ticket).

My only point really is that having a certain set of rules (advance ticket = reservable service + non-reservable connections) can throw up strange cases like these, and that is just what they are - edge cases.

gazthomas · 8 Dec 2018

I must admit, given the itinerary I might have been inclined to have got the direct coach, albeit slightly more expensive

Owen · 8 Dec 2018

I have to agree. It’s been a long journey and I will make sure to book the London connection if this happens again.

This journey has been such a pain, changing in Cambridge and Stowmarket surrounding by drunk idiots. At least a change in London would’ve meant a direct train.

I did look last night and it was only £14 for First class. Unfortunately the person I was with would’ve had to have spent £25 so we didn’t do that.

Thanks again

Gerald Fiennes · 11 Dec 2018

Well, it certainly looks like this is an 'edge case'. The Maltese Cross normally implies that the ticket is valid (but obviously not required) using LUL for interchange and the raileasy itinerary shows that such a routing is possible within journey planners. I would imagine this has happened because the Cambridge/Stowmarket route can be very slow compared with journeys via London, so GA has permitted this option has been permitted to stay in place (at least for now...!) rather than create route-based ADV fares.

tiptoptaff · 11 Dec 2018

Owen said:
This journey has been such a pain, changing in Cambridge and Stowmarket surrounding by drunk idiots. At least a change in London would’ve meant a direct train.
Thanks again

Not it wouldn't have - you would still have had to change in Ipswich and Stowmarket.

Stansted to Norwich - London stamp

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