Minibus speed limits and license requirements

Clip · 8 Dec 2018

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #23 originally in this thread.

yorkie said:
You can probably add 3 more hours as I'd imagine the minibus will be restricted to 50mph and will need to stop at least once en-route,

How and why do you think a minibus is restricted to 50MPH? Are you aware of the legal stance on such things or are you just lacking in knowledge on the subject?

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Lrd · 9 Dec 2018

Clip said:
How and why do you think a minibus is restricted to 50MPH? Are you aware of the legal stance on such things or are you just lacking in knowledge on the subject?

It's 62mph. A 12mph (or about 15 minutes) difference is hardly worth such an aggressive post.

bengley · 9 Dec 2018

Lrd said:
It's 62mph. A 12mph (or about 15 minutes) difference is hardly worth such an aggressive post.

Minibuses aren't limited to 62mph. They can do 70+ just as cars can.

PG · 9 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
You can probably add 3 more hours as I'd imagine the minibus will be restricted to 50mph and will need to stop at least once en-route, so a likely 5 hour delay into King's Cross!

Clip said:
How and why do you think a minibus is restricted to 50MPH? Are you aware of the legal stance on such things or are you just lacking in knowledge on the subject?

Lrd said:
It's 62mph. A 12mph (or about 15 minutes) difference is hardly worth such an aggressive post.

Unless a lower limit applies it's 50mph except on a dual carriageway or motorway when it's 60mph.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-hig...all-drivers-and-riders-103-to-158#speedlimits

I'd also suggest that a compulsory stop of 45 minutes will be required.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/drivers...es-on-drivers-hours#breaks-and-driving-limits

PG · 9 Dec 2018

bengley said:
Minibuses aren't limited to 62mph. They can do 70+ just as cars can.

Not legally in this particular circumstance as the minibus would need to be licenced as a PSV which therefore subjects it to the lower limits referenced in my previous post.

bengley · 9 Dec 2018

PG said:
Not legally in this particular circumstance as the minibus would need to be licenced as a PSV which therefore subjects it to the lower limits referenced in my previous post.

The link in your previous post clearly shows the limit for minibuses on motorways as being 70mph.

Deafdoggie · 9 Dec 2018

Lrd said:
It's 62mph. A 12mph (or about 15 minutes) difference is hardly worth such an aggressive post.

There’s no 62mph limit. HGV are 56mph, coaches are 60mph. Minibuses depends on age, number of seats & drivers license as to what their speed limit is.

A more upto date list is at https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits which includes the coach (over 12 meter) limit of 60mph

Narom · 9 Dec 2018

There is a 62mph limit, or there at least used to be, in the early 2000s it's was legislated that minibuses had to have speed limiters fitted .

IIRC only to diesels though!

robbeech · 9 Dec 2018

Narom said:
There is a 62mph limit, or there at least used to be, in the early 2000s it's was legislated that minibuses had to have speed limiters fitted .

IIRC only to diesels though!

I’m unaware of any limit being enforced dependant on fuel type.

As for the speed limit for this vehicle. It’s been considered a minibus. A minibus is generally considered something formed from a sprinter/vario (or possibly a transit). They’re generally around 16 seats including the driver. They’re allowed to do 70mph on a motorway the same as a car but are restricted further than cars on dual and single carriageways as are vans.

Anything larger would be considered a bus rather than a minibus.

It’s possible however that the vehicle itself has electronic limiting that (whilst not a legal requirement) may increase journey times.

In terms of drivers hours at 70mph along the motorway there’s no reason why they couldn’t do the journey in one go as it’s generally around 4 hours, however this wouldn’t be acceptable so a break would be recommended.

Deafdoggie · 9 Dec 2018

robbeech said:
I’m unaware of any limit being enforced dependant on fuel type.

As for the speed limit for this vehicle. It’s been considered a minibus. A minibus is generally considered something formed from a sprinter/vario (or possibly a transit). They’re generally around 16 seats including the driver. They’re allowed to do 70mph on a motorway the same as a car but are restricted further than cars on dual and single carriageways as are vans.

Anything larger would be considered a bus rather than a minibus.

It’s possible however that the vehicle itself has electronic limiting that (whilst not a legal requirement) may increase journey times.

In terms of drivers hours at 70mph along the motorway there’s no reason why they couldn’t do the journey in one go as it’s generally around 4 hours, however this wouldn’t be acceptable so a break would be recommended.

Speed limit is based on length (under 12 meters is a minibus) It depends on drivers licence as to what it’s driven as. Those of us of a certain age can drive anything upto (and including) 16 passenger seats on a car license. My children can only drive upto (and including) 7 passengers.
Over those the driver needs a D licence (PSV in old money) which then starts the whole ‘driving hours’ Assuming they start ‘clean’ they can drive four and a half hours without a break. But that is the absolute maximum

Lrd · 9 Dec 2018

Deafdoggie said:
There’s no 62mph limit. HGV are 56mph, coaches are 60mph. Minibuses depends on age, number of seats & drivers license as to what their speed limit is.

A more upto date list is at https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits which includes the coach (over 12 meter) limit of 60mph

Coaches are 62mph (100 km/h).

The minibuses that I used to drive (in revenue generating service) were limited to 62mph as they had a tacho. The driver will have to be driving on EU regs for such a long journey and therefore will have a tacho.

PSVs are allowed to do 70mph on the motorway but are restricted to 62mph.

Stuart-h · 9 Dec 2018

Likewise with hgv's. Can do 60mph on the motorway but are limited to 56mph.

Bletchleyite · 9 Dec 2018

Narom said:
There is a 62mph limit, or there at least used to be, in the early 2000s it's was legislated that minibuses had to have speed limiters fitted .

IIRC only to diesels though!

Not all of them.

Edit: most of them though: http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/repository/Speed Limiters - New Regulations.pdf

Bletchleyite · 9 Dec 2018

Deafdoggie said:
My children can only drive upto (and including) 7 passengers.

Point of order - 8 passengers (9 including the driver).

Over those the driver needs a D licence (PSV in old money) which then starts the whole ‘driving hours’ Assuming they start ‘clean’ they can drive four and a half hours without a break. But that is the absolute maximum

This isn't correct. When a tachograph is required does not depend on whether you have D, D1 or D1 (101) i.e. not for hire and reward (which is the "freebie" D1 you have) - it's about what the bus is being used for.

Deafdoggie · 9 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Point of order - 8 passengers (9 including the driver).

This isn't correct. When a tachograph is required does not depend on whether you have D, D1 or D1 (101) i.e. not for hire and reward (which is the "freebie" D1 you have) - it's about what the bus is being used for.

One passenger out

Indeed. The older ones (I’m 50 next year!) here amongst us, can drive a minibus on our car license, but not for hire & reward. The young hipsters here can’t drive it regardless.

My D1 has expired. Several things happened all at once, my photo had to be updated, my CPC wasn’t up to date, I had a heart attack & quintuple bypass so couldn’t drive for 6 months anyway, (I got the letters about CPC & photo whilst in hospital-when I say all at once, it really was all at once!) so I let it lapse. Although the DVLA say I can have it put back on without needing another test. That was five years ago, and I’ve not needed it since. Mind you, I’m not working as a bus driver either now.

dewsnapsliding · 9 Dec 2018

Deafdoggie said:
The young hipsters here can’t drive it regardless.

This is also incorrect, there are a number of criteria which must be fulfilled for non D1 drivers to be able to drive a minibuses in the UK (commonly referred to as the D1 derogation)

Over 21
Held license for 2 or more years
No Hire or Reward (purpose of journey)
Must be providing service on a voluntary basis (driver)
No trailer
Vehicle must have GVW of 3.5t (4.25 t if adapted for wheelchair users)

Bletchleyite · 9 Dec 2018

dewsnapsliding said:
This is also incorrect, there are a number of criteria which must be fulfilled for non D1 drivers to be able to drive a minibuses in the UK (commonly referred to as the D1 derogation)

Over 21
Held license for 2 or more years
No Hire or Reward (purpose of journey)
Must be providing service on a voluntary basis (driver)
No trailer
Vehicle must have GVW of 3.5t (4.25 t if adapted for wheelchair users)

Noting that operating under Section 19 effectively exempts the "hire or reward" bit of that provided not for profit. Scout buses is a common use case.

sprunt · 9 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Noting that operating under Section 19 effectively exempts the "hire or reward" bit of that provided not for profit. Scout buses is a common use case.

Funny you should mention scout buses - I was imagining the customers having a good sing-song in their minibus down the M1.

GW43125 · 9 Dec 2018

Intermodal said:
Does anyone know what speed a minibus is limited to? Reading the thread so far I feel it is a topic that we haven't really discussed.

Certainly my school's minibuses (going back a few years now) were limited to 62 (100km/h) as was the one my scout group often borrowed

sprunt said:
Funny you should mention scout buses - I was imagining the customers having a good sing-song in their minibus down the M1.

Depends which way they're going. From experience, if you're going to somewhere you're singing, if you're coming back you're all asleep!

Deafdoggie · 9 Dec 2018

dewsnapsliding said:
This is also incorrect, there are a number of criteria which must be fulfilled for non D1 drivers to be able to drive a minibuses in the UK (commonly referred to as the D1 derogation)

Over 21
Held license for 2 or more years
No Hire or Reward (purpose of journey)
Must be providing service on a voluntary basis (driver)
No trailer
Vehicle must have GVW of 3.5t (4.25 t if adapted for wheelchair users)

Indeed, all the above means that young people can’t drive over 8 passengers on a car licence. Which is what I said.

dewsnapsliding · 9 Dec 2018

Deafdoggie said:
Indeed, all the above means that young people can’t drive over 8 passengers on a car licence. Which is what I said.

No it means completely the opposite, a driver without a restricted D1 entitlement category on their driving licence may drive a minibus provided all the above criteria are met. (and that they are not over 70 unless they have passed the Professional medical standard, or have a medically restricted licence).

Bletchleyite said:
Noting that operating under Section 19 effectively exempts the "hire or reward" bit of that provided not for profit. Scout buses is a common use case.

It doesn't exempt Hire or Reward, it permits it (I know you state "effectively"' but it doesn't exempt it) but you are correct, provided it is not operated for profit.

There are a number of examples of operation of vehicles over 8 seats which may be undertaken, where Hire or Reward does not exist - family use, 'Crown use' which can be taken to mean Local Authorities (where no charge is made), Army, Police, Prison service (provided it is not a private company), and I'm sure there are others. I wonder if NR could make use of that exemption?

Additionally, no CPC requirement for these drivers yet either.

I think we stray from the points though

Bletchleyite · 9 Dec 2018

Deafdoggie said:
Indeed, all the above means that young people can’t drive over 8 passengers on a car licence. Which is what I said.

No, it doesn't. He set out the cases under which young people can drive over 8 passengers on a car licence.

mpthomson · 10 Dec 2018

GW43125 said:
Certainly my school's minibuses (going back a few years now) were limited to 62 (100km/h) as was the one my scout group often borrowed

As are all military ones, but not the 8 passenger combivans that are used.

hooverboy · 10 Dec 2018

bengley said:
Minibuses aren't limited to 62mph. They can do 70+ just as cars can.

i think it depends on when it ceases to become a minibus and becomes a PSV...I think it's 21 seats limit, over that it's a PSV and subject to restriction

hooverboy · 10 Dec 2018

Deafdoggie said:
Indeed, all the above means that young people can’t drive over 8 passengers on a car licence. Which is what I said.

most young people now have a lot more stringent restrictions on the vehicles they may/may not drive than older folks do.

I was actually quite shocked to see the difference when my son and I compared licences after he got his back after passing his test.

Clip · 10 Dec 2018

Lrd said:
It's 62mph. A 12mph (or about 15 minutes) difference is hardly worth such an aggressive post.

Not agressive just ensuring that you knew what you were on about and things were stated correctly

Bletchleyite · 10 Dec 2018

hooverboy said:
i think it depends on when it ceases to become a minibus and becomes a PSV...I think it's 21 seats limit, over that it's a PSV and subject to restriction

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/repository/Speed Limiters - New Regulations.pdf

hooverboy said:
most young people now have a lot more stringent restrictions on the vehicles they may/may not drive than older folks do.

I was actually quite shocked to see the difference when my son and I compared licences after he got his back after passing his test.

The tipping point was 1997, I missed it by a couple of months

PermitToTravel · 12 Dec 2018

dewsnapsliding said:
I wonder if NR could make use of that exemption?

Strictly speaking no, as the driver will be being paid. Plenty of school teachers do it though...

Bletchleyite · 13 Dec 2018

PermitToTravel said:
Strictly speaking no, as the driver will be being paid. Plenty of school teachers do it though...

The somewhat dubious get-out used for this is that they are volunteering to do things like after school clubs and it isn't part of their job. I suspect there's just not been a test case yet.

PermitToTravel · 13 Dec 2018

You're right, there hasn't been. The Community Transport Association used to say that it's acceptable and have deleted this advice from their website this year. Plenty of councils forbid it, saying they refuse to be the test case.

Minibus speed limits and license requirements

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