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Arriva Rail North DOO

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Gems

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I'm fairly sure that calling 52 weeks of strikes will prompt retaliation from Arriva in the form of revised T's and C's for staff and/or the government deciding to further tighten legislation.
I think the government has enough trouble clinging onto power. They have no time to be tinkering around with little things like running the country. Ruining it maybe.

As for Arriva. What are they going to do? At the moment they don't have a single train capable of DCO. They have inherited staff on three different forms of terms and conditions. All Arriva can do is hope the government keeps on bankrolling them, and all the government can do whilst it messes with Brexit is keep doing so.

Watch out for Sunday 23rd Dec. A lot of Sunday jobs may be uncovered.
 
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Robertj21a

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I think the government has enough trouble clinging onto power. They have no time to be tinkering around with little things like running the country. Ruining it maybe.

As for Arriva. What are they going to do? At the moment they don't have a single train capable of DCO. They have inherited staff on three different forms of terms and conditions. All Arriva can do is hope the government keeps on bankrolling them, and all the government can do whilst it messes with Brexit is keep doing so.

Watch out for Sunday 23rd Dec. A lot of Sunday jobs may be uncovered.


My personal view is that there's quite a few ideas that Arriva could pursue in order to bring this to a head but that's for them to determine which way to go and whether it's worth it - or whether they just ride out 52 weeks of strikes.
 

Meerkat

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Surely the key factor is what ASLEF are going to do?
If they are reasonable/bribable (delete as per your personal bias) then Northern sit it out until they have enough DCO trains to run some kind of service without striking guards.
If ASLEF say no way then the government have to bend or seriously escalate - presumably guarantee to rota an OBS on every train (for PR with passengers) and then impose the change.
 

Gems

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Surely the key factor is what ASLEF are going to do?
If they are reasonable/bribable (delete as per your personal bias) then Northern sit it out until they have enough DCO trains to run some kind of service without striking guards.
If ASLEF say no way then the government have to bend or seriously escalate - presumably guarantee to rota an OBS on every train (for PR with passengers) and then impose the change.
I think everyone has their price. My personal view is that the bigger the BMW or Audi you drive the cheaper you become. But a good many are saying 'No' at any price. They don't want to fallout if someone gets dragged or the hassle of Saturday night drunks. Many became drivers to escape that, not go back into it with added responsibilities.
 

Gems

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My personal view is that there's quite a few ideas that Arriva could pursue in order to bring this to a head but that's for them to determine which way to go and whether it's worth it - or whether they just ride out 52 weeks of strikes.
Well don't forget. When Southern had their little fallout it cost about £1,300 to take a case to a tribunal. Now it costs nothing. Anything they do had better be watertight with a double skinned hull and solid bulkhead watertight doors.
 

6Gman

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I think everyone has their price. My personal view is that the bigger the BMW or Audi you drive the cheaper you become. But a good many are saying 'No' at any price. They don't want to fallout if someone gets dragged or the hassle of Saturday night drunks. Many became drivers to escape that, not go back into it with added responsibilities.

This. My father was a front-end man. He would always help passengers as an incidental (when waiting on the platform to relieve a train for example) but no way would he have wanted the direct customer responsibility. (Especially on Saturday evening Liverpool - Birminghams! #) And I don't think any financial incentive would have persuaded him.

# Other notorious services are available.
 

Robertj21a

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Well don't forget. When Southern had their little fallout it cost about £1,300 to take a case to a tribunal. Now it costs nothing. Anything they do had better be watertight with a double skinned hull and solid bulkhead watertight doors.


I daresay that all TOCs (and unions) are well aware of the various legalities and hurdles since the Southern issues. That doesn't mean that they need to even go down that particular route.
 

Bevan Price

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They need to be careful there. Hiring in staff from another TOC would be permitted but you can't hire in staff from a third party agency to cover for striking workers.

Not at the moment, but there are those from "the right" who would like to change some of the laws relating to strikes -- and after the Brexit farce, the next government could well be run by right wing tories. Some of them hate TUs even more than they hate EU....
 

Carlisle

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No they couldn't. Thatcher had made "political" and "sympathy" strikes illegal; strikes were only allowed over genuine disputes with employers, and after a ballot of members. Any TU ignoring those laws would have been bankrupted by fines.
True, but that didn’t entirely remove their ability to oppose their members being farmed out from BR into hundreds of different companies, if they’d had sufficient desire to do so .
 

Starmill

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Several rumours flying around. I think the most accurate rumour is that Saturday strikes are set to continue, The big question is how many they are going to call. It is not beyond the realms of possibility they may call 52 of them.
The railway is nothing without its active rumour mill eh!

Fortunately for those of impatient disposition, it's not long to wait. If a strike were to be called for 5th January 2019 it would need to be done before 22 December, which is less than two weeks from now. We'll know by then if the streak is to be broken - or augmented to epic proportions.
 

Gems

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The railway is nothing without its active rumour mill eh!

Fortunately for those of impatient disposition, it's not long to wait. If a strike were to be called for 5th January 2019 it would need to be done before 22 December, which is less than two weeks from now. We'll know by then if the streak is to be broken - or augmented to epic proportions.
Well I can only say what I have heard at the top. Obviously things can change. But the rumour is Saturday strikes are the order of the day. Just a question of how many they announce.
 

HH

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Meanwhile, no harm in stoking a few rumours that they will be 52, eh?
 

CHAPS2034

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Fortunately for those of impatient disposition, it's not long to wait. If a strike were to be called for 5th January 2019 it would need to be done before 22 December, which is less than two weeks from now. We'll know by then if the streak is to be broken - or augmented to epic proportions.

My guess is that the RMT, being full of the festive spirit, will wait until the last moment to announce the next series so that management will have to sort things out during the break. And it will probably a big number (3 months+) to make the temp guards totally fed up with what lies ahead.

Happy Christmas.
 

Meerkat

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At what point does Northern just cancel all Saturday services and blame the RMT?
And then they start cancelling services permanently due to reduced income and the government pull funding for upgrades.....
 

muz379

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At what point does Northern just cancel all Saturday services and blame the RMT?
And then they start cancelling services permanently due to reduced income and the government pull funding for upgrades.....
I dont think that the public would go along with blaming the RMT after months of services being run on strikdays . If the company had wanted to do this they would have had to do it from the start .

And just flat out abandoning the provision of any service on a strike day when some could be provided would probably risk the DFT not compensating the franchise .
 

Killingworth

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Having pressed the industrial relations nuclear button of strike action on this issue, and continuing for so long, one wonders what the RMT might do if they were unhappy about anything else before this is resolved. According to a report in the Sunday Times there could be trouble brewing on pensions.
 

Robertj21a

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Having pressed the industrial relations nuclear button of strike action on this issue, and continuing for so long, one wonders what the RMT might do if they were unhappy about anything else before this is resolved. According to a report in the Sunday Times there could be trouble brewing on pensions.


I understand that there's a sizeable shortfall in pensions.
 

a_c_skinner

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And it will probably a big number (3 months+) to make the temp guards totally fed up with what lies ahead.

The risk for the RMT is it will make the substantive guards consider their position too. They are losing money with the strikes and anyone sensible will be weighing up if they, personally, are going to get worthwhile payback for this sacrifice in conditions as well as terms.

Tangentially a senior trades union official of my distant acquaintance was of the view that strikes were a sign of a failing union as their job was to improve members' income, not worsen it.
 

CaptainHaddock

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The risk for the RMT is it will make the substantive guards consider their position too. They are losing money with the strikes and anyone sensible will be weighing up if they, personally, are going to get worthwhile payback for this sacrifice in conditions as well as terms.

Tangentially a senior trades union official of my distant acquaintance was of the view that strikes were a sign of a failing union as their job was to improve members' income, not worsen it.

There is of course nothing to stop any guard refusing to take part in the strike, regardless of whether they're a member of the RMT or not. The Saturday strikes have had no effect whatsoever in resolving the dispute so perhaps it's time for the less radical guards to say "enough is enough" and come into work as normal. If I were a member of a union that was effectively forcing me to take a 20% pay cut every week I'd certainly take that course of action!
 

Jonfun

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Having pressed the industrial relations nuclear button of strike action on this issue, and continuing for so long, one wonders what the RMT might do if they were unhappy about anything else before this is resolved. According to a report in the Sunday Times there could be trouble brewing on pensions.

Having seen that report its simply scaremongering; staff aren't idiots and understand that in the real world costs go up, and one of those costs which may go up is how much you have to pay into a pension.

The other year the unions sold their members down the river by not challenging an increase in retirement age from 60 to 62. Even then there weren't calls amongst the workforce for industrial action.
 

Puffing Devil

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The other year the unions sold their members down the river by not challenging an increase in retirement age from 60 to 62. Even then there weren't calls amongst the workforce for industrial action.

And with that, the last traces of sympathy are vanishing.

Highly protected employment, retirement at 62 on a final salary pension..... Try a week in the shoes of some of the passengers who can't get to work on their zero-hours contract because of the strikes!
 

LowLevel

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Having seen that report its simply scaremongering; staff aren't idiots and understand that in the real world costs go up, and one of those costs which may go up is how much you have to pay into a pension.

The other year the unions sold their members down the river by not challenging an increase in retirement age from 60 to 62. Even then there weren't calls amongst the workforce for industrial action.

ASLEF went on strike at EMT over plans to *reduce* contributions in 2012.
 

Bletchleyite

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ASLEF went on strike at EMT over plans to *reduce* contributions in 2012.

Of course they could just reduce contributions for new staff. Again I don't see why this should be any of the Union's concern; future employees can take or leave the job depending on whether they accept the package. If they don't, the package will soon improve as otherwise the employer won't get any staff.

It's the insistence that everyone has to be on exactly the same that causes some of these issues.
 

LowLevel

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Of course they could just reduce contributions for new staff. Again I don't see why this should be any of the Union's concern; future employees can take or leave the job depending on whether they accept the package. If they don't, the package will soon improve as otherwise the employer won't get any staff.

It's the insistence that everyone has to be on exactly the same that causes some of these issues.

As someone who is at a depot with a hatful of traincrew contracts it's an absolute pain in the backside in terms of rostering and industrial relations. We all do the same job - train guard or driver - and we all have different rights and entitlements to take into account.
 

Jonfun

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And with that, the last traces of sympathy are vanishing.

Highly protected employment, retirement at 62 on a final salary pension..... Try a week in the shoes of some of the passengers who can't get to work on their zero-hours contract because of the strikes!

Nobody's been asking for sympathy? If folk are that desperate for a railway pension then they should come and join the railway, to be blunt

This dispute isn't about pensions, and it isn't going to be about pensions.
 

Robertj21a

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The trouble is most people have got lost as to what the dispute is really about. Increasingly, it seems to be just a desperate attempt to hang on to jobs that won't be needed, so that extra new staff can be recruited - and thereby boost RMT membership.
Previously, we've been told it's all about doors, FatCats, Tories, Germans, disabled, DOO and safety critical.
 

scrapy

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I believe the Sunday cancellations relate to not enough drivers volunteering to work, opposed to anything to do with guards.

EDIT: On checking the Lancaster-Morecambe services cancelled this evening is due to 'no conductor being available.'
There will be a number of conductor shortages in December on the certainally on the west side as aslef drivers at some depots are paying for the beers on Christmas nights out, others are using self help funds for the strikers, my Mrs had a free night out on Saturday.
 

woodmally

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Several rumours flying around. I think the most accurate rumour is that Saturday strikes are set to continue, The big question is how many they are going to call. It is not beyond the realms of possibility they may call 52 of them.
Your probably right. Saturdays fulfils two functions for the RMT 1) It doesnt annoy workers (as much). Yes there are still people that cannot get to work but less than would on a normal work day (Monday to Friday) and 2) Its one day a week so not impact on conductors wages as much.
 

Puffing Devil

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Nobody's been asking for sympathy? If folk are that desperate for a railway pension then they should come and join the railway, to be blunt

This dispute isn't about pensions, and it isn't going to be about pensions.

It certainly isn't about pensions. However, the overall terms and conditions for guards are very favourable. A lot more favourable than many of the passengers being bitten by the strike.

Now the action of the guards is hitting other jobs and businesses without a massive loss to the guards, many people will start to question their support for those in a better position than themselves. Add into the mix that many services in the UK and worldwide operate very safely without a guard, then sympathy and support starts to wane. The "safety and security" angle also fades when most Northern services see the guard locked away on the rear cabin after 8pm - this would not change with a second staff member on board.

I suspect that many passengers would now rather see a service without a guard that runs on a Saturday, rather than no services in 2019.
 
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