Northern Strike Day Advance

skyhigh · 9 Dec 2018

Hi all,

I booked an advance ticket from King's Cross to Harrogate before the latest strike dates were announced, meaning that I was sold the ticket with a full itinerary. I was booked on the 1903 service from King's Cross to Leeds, then the 2129 service to Harrogate. Due to the strike, when I arrived in Leeds there were no more trains to Harrogate.

Northern staff at Leeds told me that they 'don't arrange replacement transport for disruption' and that they wouldn't provide me with any way to get home from Leeds. As such, I took a taxi.

My question is - is there any way I can claim the cost of the taxi back from Northern? I've seen other threads on similar topics, though haven't seen anyone report that they've successfully manage it!

Thanks

RailUK Forums

ForTheLoveOf · 9 Dec 2018

skyhigh said:
Hi all,

I booked an advance ticket from King's Cross to Harrogate before the latest strike dates were announced, meaning that I was sold the ticket with a full itinerary. I was booked on the 1903 service from King's Cross to Leeds, then the 2129 service to Harrogate. Due to the strike, when I arrived in Leeds there were no more trains to Harrogate.

Northern staff at Leeds told me that they 'don't arrange replacement transport for disruption' and that they wouldn't provide me with any way to get home from Leeds. As such, I took a taxi.

My question is - is there any way I can claim the cost of the taxi back from Northern? I've seen other threads on similar topics, though haven't seen anyone report that they've successfully manage it!

Thanks

Absolutely. The claim that "[we] don't arrange replacement transport for disruption" might as well read "we knowingly and intentionally breach our contracts when disruption occurs". It is their legal obligation to provide alternative transport (and, really, to blooming well transport you to your ticketed destination!).

Send in a letter or email (to make sure you can prove what was said and when) to them, together with a picture of your taxi receipt, asking them to pay this.

If you have any problems (which, let's be honest, you probably will), come back here and we can advise further!

Bletchleyite · 9 Dec 2018

FWIW they could, and probably should, resolve this for Advances at least by removing all quota on Saturdays for the foreseeable future. Obviously with a walk-up there is the option to travel at a different, suitable time where a connection may be available.

_toommm_ · 9 Dec 2018

Normally, if you travelled knowing full well there was no trains then no. However, an itinerary forms a contract for the TOC(s) to get you from A to B (via C) at a certain time. On the premise of that and because you did have an itinerary, then yes. It will probably get rejected first time round so dont be disheartened and continue to chase.

gray1404 · 9 Dec 2018

Yes, you have evidence of contract. Email Northern a complaint attaching a copy of your train tickets, booking confirmation (as this shows the trains) and a copy of your taxi receipt. Explain that you requested help from their staff at Leeds and they left you stranded. Also, would it have been reasonably possible to get to your destination by bus at that time or was taxi the only way?

Also, what time did the taxi get you to your destination? You could also have a delay repay claim if you arrived 30 or more minutes after your booked time.

Ianigsy · 9 Dec 2018

gray1404 said:
Also, would it have been reasonably possible to get to your destination by bus at that time or was taxi the only way?

The 36 bus from Leeds to Harrogate runs into the small hours of Sunday morning, but finding that information out at 9pm on a Saturday evening (as well as where to catch it) might be a challenge for somebody unfamiliar with Leeds city centre.

robbeech · 9 Dec 2018

Just to add to the several correct posts, as the TOC did not convey you to your destination at all then they should be compensating you in full for your ticket. Whether you consider that enough to disregard the taxi fare or not is up to you. There’s scope for you to suggest compensation for both.

Starmill · 9 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
FWIW they could, and probably should, resolve this for Advances at least by removing all quota on Saturdays for the foreseeable future.

The vast majority of Northern services are non-reservable, including those to Harrogate.

As such, this proposed action wouldn't prevent LNER&Connections Advances from being sold which require Northern connections.

Instead, the only way to achieve your suggestion would be to delete the all of their trains from the timetable.

In any case, Northern aren't working along your lines of thinking. There could be a strike on 5th January 2019, we don't yet know. At the moment if we take Nottingham to Sheffield as an example there is an AP Northern Only ticket available on just about all of their trains all day. I attach a screenshot with these priced at £5.50:

Screenshot_20181209-224711_National Rail.jpg

For reference, an Anytime Day Single costs £14.60 so the £5.50 price point is keenly chosen. In the event that a strike were called on this travel date Northern would more than likely cancel all services, at least, they did last Saturday. They also provided zero replacement buses and arranged zero ticket acceptance - East Midlands Trains refused to accept any sort of Northern Only ticket last Saturday.

So I pity anyone who is put in this situation if a strike is called. They would more than likely be forced to cough up for their own travel even though they, at the moment, have no idea whatsoever that they could be at risk.

If Northern will not pay your reasonable costs for replacement transport after you make your journey, the Rail Ombudsman could be contacted to take up the case. Small Claims Court could also be appropriate.

skyhigh · 9 Dec 2018

Thanks all, I've sent an email to Northern and I'll update when I hear back.

Hadders · 10 Dec 2018

skyhigh said:
Thanks all, I've sent an email to Northern and I'll update when I hear back.

You'll have a long wait. They seem to be months behind with this sort of stuff and the initial reply will be some sort of waffle saying they won't pay.

In fairness to GTR they hired additional staff to deal with delay repay claims during the shambles - I never waited more than 2 weeks to get my claims processed.

gray1404 · 10 Dec 2018

If a complaint or delay repay claim is lodged and a response is not received within 40 working days the case can, at that point, be taken to the Rail Ombudsman service. I hope a lot of people do this to make the point that TOCs need to respond in good time.

ForTheLoveOf · 10 Dec 2018

Hadders said:
You'll have a long wait. They seem to be months behind with this sort of stuff and the initial reply will be some sort of waffle saying they won't pay.

In fairness to GTR they hired additional staff to deal with delay repay claims during the shambles - I never waited more than 2 weeks to get my claims processed.

If Northern don't reply within forty working days (i.e. by the end of Wednesday 6th February), I wouldn't wait around for their bumbling incompetence. Straight to the Rail Ombudsman, IMO. I'll check this thread again on the following day!

Hadders · 10 Dec 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
If Northern don't reply within forty working days (i.e. by the end of Wednesday 6th February), I wouldn't wait around for their bumbling incompetence. Straight to the Rail Ombudsman, IMO. I'll check this thread again on the following day!

My journey involving Northern was on 24th November so sadly I don't think the Ombudsman will be an option.

ForTheLoveOf · 10 Dec 2018

Hadders said:
My journey involving Northern was on 24th November so sadly I don't think the Ombudsman will be an option.

I was actually referring to the OP of this thread. But yes, you're unfortunately just out of time for the Ombudsman.

yorkie · 10 Dec 2018

Northern staff could have advised you to use the bus, but as they made no suggestion on how to get home it's probably not unreasonable to assume a taxi was the only way.

So it's going to be an expensive bill for Northern.

They will try to resist paying anything; the impression I get is that several people in the company have no intention of adhering to consumer and contract laws when it comes to matters such as yours.

How much did the taxi cost and what was the price of the ticket?

This is the sort of case Transport Focus will support people with, though their powers are rather limited.

Bletchleyite said:
FWIW they could, and probably should, resolve this for Advances at least by removing all quota on Saturdays for the foreseeable future. Obviously with a walk-up there is the option to travel at a different, suitable time where a connection may be available.

Please can we not have such suggestions posted in the middle of disputes. You are welcome to create a new thread.

ForTheLoveOf · 10 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
Northern staff could have advised you to use the bus, but as they made no suggestion on how to get home it's probably not unreasonable to assume a taxi was the only way.

So it's going to be an expensive bill for Northern.

They will try to resist paying anything; the impression I get is that several people in the company have no intention of adhering to consumer and contract laws when it comes to matters such as yours.

How much did the taxi cost and what was the price of the ticket?

This is the sort of case Transport Focus will support people with, though their powers are rather limited.

Please can we not have such suggestions posted in the middle of disputes. You are welcome to create a new thread.

Due to the date of the incident, this is a matter within the purview of the Ombudsman!

Deafdoggie · 10 Dec 2018

I put a claim into Northern for cancelled services. Took a while, then got rejected. I replied asking for their official registered business name and their official registered address to which legal documents could be served. I had a bank transfer for the full amount of asking, and more, with a week.

skyhigh · 10 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
How much did the taxi cost and what was the price of the ticket?

The taxi was just short of £35. The tickets held were two advance singles for £30.05 each.

If I don't get a satisfactory response from Northern I'll certainly take it further with Transport Focus/the ombudsman.

gray1404 · 10 Dec 2018

Deafdoggie said:
I put a claim into Northern for cancelled services. Took a while, then got rejected. I replied asking for their official registered business name and their official registered address to which legal documents could be served. I had a bank transfer for the full amount of asking, and more, with a week.

Did you end up serving legal notice or did they pay up once you asked for their company address? How much did they give on top?

Deafdoggie · 10 Dec 2018

gray1404 said:
Did you end up serving legal notice or did they pay up once you asked for their company address? How much did they give on top?

I didn’t need to do anything further. I rejected their refusal to refund the full ticket price (they refused to pay anything, I’d argued I was entitled to a full refund) asked for their full legal name, the registered address to which documents should be served, and reiterated my point, explaining that RDG & Transport Focus both agreed with me.
They refunded double the ticket price. Although they never mentioned it, so if was extra compensation or incompetence I can’t say! But I wasn’t going to carry on arguing!

gray1404 · 10 Dec 2018

OP as well as having to pay for a taxi, did you also arrive late at your destination? If so, how late?

skyhigh · 10 Dec 2018

gray1404 said:
OP as well as having to pay for a taxi, did you also arrive late at your destination? If so, how late?

I arrived about 20 minutes late - we took the taxi to the station as I thought that stood the best chance of getting the money back.

skyhigh · 22 Jan 2019

Just as an update, other than the initial confirmation email I still haven't had any response from Northern. I've written to my local MP, who is also going to attempt to get a response from the company. Once the time limit is up I'll definitely be taking it to the ombudsman if I haven't had a satisfactory response.

robbeech · 22 Jan 2019

I’ve been contacted this week by Northern about a man issue I had in early December so you might be getting close to the top of the pile now.

Deerfold · 24 Jan 2019

Starmill said:
The vast majority of Northern services are non-reservable, including those to Harrogate.

As such, this proposed action wouldn't prevent LNER&Connections Advances from being sold which require Northern connections.

It'll prevent most online sites from selling them. If I search for London to Harrogate for tomorrow, I am not offered any trains leaving London after 2030 (the 2133 or the 2330). I certainly can't get an itinerary suggesting I can make the full journey without waiting overnight.

Starmill · 25 Jan 2019

Deerfold said:
It'll prevent most online sites from selling them.

I was responding to a post that reccomended Northern entering zero quota on all Saturday services. This would be useful, to a point, (obviously it would negatively impact on the forward loading of revenue and would probably lose a few sales) but it wouldn't prevent any online sites from selling Advance tickets with Northern connections on the Harrogate line because the trains will still be in the timetable as non-reservable services, unchanged.

robbeech · 25 Jan 2019

Which is why they should remove them from the timetable until further notice. Then upload a timetable when they have finalised it. But that’s far too much effort for the TOCs

Starmill · 25 Jan 2019

They could take the choice to indefinitely whitespace their entire Saturday timetable, but this would present some potential difficulties:

Withdrawal of all services might breach their franchise agreement. This could hurt Northern in respect of their compensation claim for the industrial action, or provoke enforcement action as a result of a franchise breach. The company is contracted to run trains on Saturdays. An announcement that they've withdrawn Saturday services on days that aren't strike days could leave them open to action from tb DfT, and they couldn't use strikes as an excuse.

If the Union does not call a strike after they've withdrawn all services from the timetable, the company may have to put them all back. Who is liable for the cost of the time it takes to do that, and for the lost sales? Bear in mind that the Union isn't obliged to go on strike, and if they see the company doing something that may even breach their licence they are quite likely to draw attention to that and make life difficult for them e.g. By leaving a gap, or announcing one strike on a day that isn't Saturday.

skyhigh · 16 Feb 2019

After getting my MP involved, today I received a letter from Northern. They said that while they were unable to refund the cost of the taxi, on this occasion they would refund me the cost of the tickets due to the delay I experienced on my journey. As such, they enclosed a cheque for £30.05.

My issues with this - the taxi was just under £35, and there were two of us travelling, meaning that if they were refunding the tickets I'd be due £60.10... I'll give them a call on Monday and see what they say.

_toommm_ · 16 Feb 2019

skyhigh said:
After getting my MP involved, today I received a letter from Northern. They said that while they were unable to refund the cost of the taxi, on this occasion they would refund me the cost of the tickets due to the delay I experienced on my journey. As such, they enclosed a cheque for £30.05.

My issues with this - the taxi was just under £35, and there were two of us travelling, meaning that if they were refunding the tickets I'd be due £60.10... I'll give them a call on Monday and see what they say.

I hate it when operators are firmly in the wrong, and use the words 'on this occasion', or 'as a gesture of goodwill'. It makes you want to keep on arguing until they realise that it shouldn't be a one off and that people like us are arguing things that shouldn't have to be argued!

Definitely persue it - I'm sure some folk will come along with relevant laws, but if you don't already know, section 28.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel state:

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you

Use this to your advantage - they should have got you alternate transport to your destination station at the very least, along with any subsequent delay repay and/or other compensation.

Northern Strike Day Advance

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