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Those SR double-decker units (Bulleids?)

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Hi all, yet another appeal to fill the gaps in my patchy memories - while I never witnessed the above in operation, I think I have some recollection of seeing one or more withdrawn examples idling on SR sidings, somewhere in the approach to London, I'd guess around Wimbledon / Clapham Junction - but unsure when this would have been, I would suppose early seventies. Does anyone have knowledge of their post-operational fate? Thanks in advance!
 
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big all

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one off the two units was preserved at ashford at least 25 years ago
they where origionally numbered 4001 4002 but later numbered 49xx so the pep could be numbered 4001 and 2001 for the 2 caar
 
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Busaholic

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I don't have the info/knowledge, but they only ever operated on the S.E. part of Southern, of course. I definitely remember travelling on them twice, and probably did so on other occasions when young as they were consistent performers on the Dartford via Bexleyheath line, which was our local.
 

Ash Bridge

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I don't have the info/knowledge, but they only ever operated on the S.E. part of Southern, of course. I definitely remember travelling on them twice, and probably did so on other occasions when young as they were consistent performers on the Dartford via Bexleyheath line, which was our local.

Apologies for going slightly of topic and I realise we're speaking a good number of years ago, but do you have any recollections of the travelling experience on these units Busaholic?
 

Cowley

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Apologies for going slightly of topic and I realise we're speaking a good number of years ago, but do you have any recollections of the travelling experience on these units Busaholic?
+ 1 actually...
I’ve always found these units very interesting.
Surely they must’ve been pretty claustrophobic to travel in during rush hour?
 

Busaholic

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Apologies for going slightly of topic and I realise we're speaking a good number of years ago, but do you have any recollections of the travelling experience on these units Busaholic?
I remember thinking 'what fun' on the one occasion it turned up at Eltham Park when I was still at primary school, and insisting on going 'upstairs'. The only occasion on which i remember using it as an adult, or near adult, I boarded it at London Bridge in the evening peak and, frankly, it was a pain with getting everyone on and off, not helped by most people having little or no experience of using it. I certainly don't think services with as many stops as the Dartford ones were suitable for these. Parisian RER type services might be suitable, so long as they were the norm and not the exception. I also seem to remember it felt more cramped upstairs, but that could be a false memory. Overall, I can quite understand why they didn't take over the Southern.
 

John Webb

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They were also used sometimes via Greenwich or Blackheath through Woolwich to Dartford as well as the Bexleyheath line. Rode on them on a number of occasions - fascinated by the top deck! Bit stuffy but the view was different to the more normal units.
I think in the end they were not used during the rush-hour because they took significantly longer to load and unload at stations, which is why they only built the two units.
 

Cowley

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Thanks John W and Busaholic.
Very interesting.
 

Ash Bridge

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Many thanks to the both of you for the quick replies, as Mr Cowley said really interesting, always been a fascination of mine these 4DD units.
 

Cowley

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Many thanks to the both of you for the quick replies, as Mr Cowley said really interesting, always been a fascination of mine these 4DD units.
They’ve always looked (to me at least) that they’d be pretty damned stuffy during a hot summer’s afternoon rush hour on the upper deck.
Was the body of standard steel construction? Because there must’ve been a large amount of glass in the higher deck compartments.
Lots of dark BR blue paint on the bodysides and roof just to warm them up that little bit more too. ;)
 

Ash Bridge

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They’ve always looked (to me at least) that they’d be pretty damned stuffy during a hot summer’s afternoon rush hour on the upper deck.
Was the body of standard steel construction? Because there must’ve been a large amount of glass in the higher deck compartments.
Lots of dark BR blue paint on the bodysides and roof just to warm them up that little bit more too. ;)

Having just read up a little, it seems you are correct or perhaps even understating the problem regarding stuffiness. Apparently none of the windows on the upper deck opened due to clearance restrictions, so forced air ventilation was provided, this is obviously not the equivalent of modern air conditioning so conditions must have been rather uncomfortable during the summer months, and especially so when you consider there was accommodation for over 150 passengers in each car across the two decks!
 

Busaholic

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Having just read up a little, it seems you are correct or perhaps even understating the problem regarding stuffiness. Apparently none of the windows on the upper deck opened due to clearance restrictions, so forced air ventilation was provided, this is obviously not the equivalent of modern air conditioning so conditions must have been rather uncomfortable during the summer months, and especially so when you consider there was accommodation for over 150 passengers in each car across the two decks!
Definitely no opening windows on the upper deck; I can picture those panes of glass in my mind's eye. Perhaps they influenced Mr Hedderwick when he designed the New Routemaster bus for London at Boris Johnson's behest! Sorry, I couldn't resist that 'dig'!
 

Ash Bridge

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Definitely no opening windows on the upper deck; I can picture those panes of glass in my mind's eye. Perhaps they influenced Mr Hedderwick when he designed the New Routemaster bus for London at Boris Johnson's behest! Sorry, I couldn't resist that 'dig'!

Having just taken a closer look I think I can see your point!
 

big all

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the trouble you had with the double deckers is first you dont have an all in one body placing your coach floor perhaps 300mm off the rail you have a chassis with equipment under it so you loose perhaps 900mm
you then have a very restricted loading gauge reducing your head hieght by perhaps another 900mm
so instead off enough room to have bottom and top decks fully seperate you have seating requiring room from below for your feet to go and use off the lower doors to exit
 

Cowley

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To be honest (and I always try to be), I hadn’t thought that none of the windows could’ve been opened.
I suppose it’s obvious though when you consider the shape of the roof and the curve of the glass on the top level.
Busaholic and John Webb - (and I’m so sorry about this question) What kind of deodorant would the average commuter wear in the late 1960s? ;)
 

Cowley

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the trouble you had with the double deckers is first you dont have an all in one body placing your coach floor perhaps 300mm off the rail you have a chassis with equipment under it so you loose perhaps 900mm
you then have a very restricted loading gauge reducing your head hieght by perhaps another 900mm
so instead off enough room to have bottom and top decks fully seperate you have seating requiring room from below for your feet to go and use off the lower doors to exit
I’m almost scared to ask the question Big all. But (and I understand the arguments regarding double deck stock on the continent), what would a modern equivalent of this stock look like now?
Monocoque construction, air conditioning etc?
It’d probably still be a nightmare to unload in rush hour, but I’d love to see it....
 

big all

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you simply dont have the head height you have around 14ft you need clearence underneath and on top then 3 layers off structure and perhaps 6ft3" minimum head height
if you manage to just fit it in usable luggage racks probably wouldnt exist
 

30907

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They were also used sometimes via Greenwich or Blackheath through Woolwich to Dartford as well as the Bexleyheath line. Rode on them on a number of occasions - fascinated by the top deck! Bit stuffy but the view was different to the more normal units.
I think in the end they were not used during the rush-hour because they took significantly longer to load and unload at stations, which is why they only built the two units.
As I remember them (in the post 1967 timetable) they were carefully diagrammed for peak shoulder workings. A quick Google says the final working was 1804 off CX via Bexleyheath, which is consistent with my memory.
 

John Webb

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I only recall travelling in these sets when they were in green paint. (When were they repainted?) My travelling in those days was mostly outside the peak hours during school holidays to various London museums and the like; I knew enough about the rush-hour even then to know it was best avoided!
 

Journeyman

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This was a typically bonkers and ridiculously over-complex Bulleid product, but fair play to him for trying! Just about every component on the train was non-standard, including the bogies, wheelsets and even the light bulbs. It was also fitted with electro-pneumatic brakes, two years before the EPB units came along, but it was incompatible with them.

Given that the idea clearly didn't work very well, it's amazing that they notched up 20+ years in service, and it's great that two vehicles survived, although they're both in very poor condition. One is undergoing active restoration, though - by my reckoning it has to be one of the most historically-significant rail vehicles in the country, so I hope it has a secure future and gets displayed somewhere eventually. I'd love to see it.
 

big all

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well the claimed capacity is 1104 compared to 772 in a 8sub so whilst this is a 43% greater capacity sitting you can exceed that with standers holding onto luggage racks:D
 

hexagon789

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It was also fitted with electro-pneumatic brakes, two years before the EPB units came along, but it was incompatible with them.

Due to them being non-self lapping I believe.

well the claimed capacity is 1104 compared to 772 in a 8sub so whilst this is a 43% greater capacity sitting you can exceed that with standers holding onto luggage racks:D

508 seats per unit, about 35% more seats than a 4SUB. Not sure if the standing capacity, presumably not great because of the steps, poor legroom and tip-up seats if occupied.


They were apparently the first units fitted with strip-lighting and pressure ventilation.
 

big all

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Due to them being non-self lapping I believe.



508 seats per unit, about 35% more seats than a 4SUB. Not sure if the standing capacity, presumably not great because of the steps, poor legroom and tip-up seats if occupied.


They were apparently the first units fitted with strip-lighting and pressure ventilation.

yes i believe non self lapping
it seems to have a standard 27 way jumper rather than i think it was an 8way jumper on a sub
there no train line [750v ]through jumper or lighting control jumper like a sub
but there is no high level main res or train pipe
also no retractable buffers or buffing bar or indeed a buckeye coupling
but has roller blinds so no stencils
so not compatable with any other stock

and i took the capacity from the link above which dont seem to match the actual seating capacity off a sub or epb with compartment open or semi open in any combination :D:D
 
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RLBH

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This was a typically bonkers and ridiculously over-complex Bulleid product, but fair play to him for trying!
I seem to recall that that was the point of the exercise. Very Senior People kept asking why the Southern Railway couldn't just build a double-decked train, so Bulleid built them one to illustrate exactly why they couldn't.
 

yorksrob

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Goes to illustrate that to get the correct balance of seating/standing capacity and speed of access/egress, the 4SUB/4EPB layout has really never been bettered.
 

delt1c

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would like to now they load unload times for PEP derived stock, as sure they would be very close to EPB and SUB times. When i commuted to liverpool st the 315's could disgorge an amazing amount of passengers and depart in under a minute. the 305,s ect could dislodge as many but station staff were left to close doors so probably slower overall
 

hexagon789

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yes i believe non self lapping
it seems to have a standard 27 way jumper rather than i think it was an 8way jumper on a sub
there no train line [750v ]through jumper or lighting control jumper like a sub
but there is no high level main res or train pipe
also no retractable buffers or buffing bar or indeed a buckeye coupling
but has roller blinds so no stencils
so not compatable with any other stock

Lots of incompatible and unique features then asides from the brakes.

and i took the capacity from the link above which dont seem to match the actual seating capacity off a sub or epb with compartment open or semi open in any combination :D:D

I'm not entirely sure I've got it right either, but I've had 3 sources agree with capacity so I took that figure.
 

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Here's the winter 1963 workings, as they came to hand first
arr dep via (station)
SG 6+14am (Slade Gr)
DFD 6.19 6.57 Loop (Dartford)
CHX 7.41 7.49 Loop (Charing X)
CRY 8.18 8.26 Loop (Crayford)
CST 9.2 9.19 Loop (Cannon St)
CRY 9.53 9+53 Spur
SLG 10+12 2+10pm
DFD 2+15 2.25 Loop and Lewisham
CST 3.12 3.27 Loop and Lewisham
DFD 4.8 4.23 Bexleyheath
CST 5.12 5.23 Bexleyheath
SLG 6.5 6.5 Greenwich
CST 6.49 7.7 Greenwich
DFD 7.47 7+59
SLG 8+5

Sorry for the formatting. So only one high peak working.
 
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