TOCs charging fees for paper tickets purchased online

Bletchleyite said:

From VTWC:

View attachment 56479

then

View attachment 56481

(Interesting that it no longer implies you can't use a different station).

It looks pretty clear to me, there is nothing in there that implies that you can collect from anywhere other than a station on the list, and plenty that makes it clear that you do need to.

Click to expand...

Although it's obvious to you and me, some posters will be along shortly to say that it does not explicitly state that you must collect your tickets before you start your journey.

alistairlees said:

Although it's obvious to you and me, some posters will be along shortly to say that it does not explicitly state that you must collect your tickets before you start your journey.

Click to expand...

Exactly what I was about to say. To those 'in the know' it's pretty obvious, but some people (particularly foreign residents or those who rarely travel by train in the UK) may not realise the significance of collecting the ticket prior to departure.

ForTheLoveOf said:

Exactly what I was about to say. To those 'in the know' it's pretty obvious, but some people (particularly foreign residents or those who rarely travel by train in the UK) may not realise the significance of collecting the ticket prior to departure.

Click to expand...

As I have now said atleast twice, on TfW there are signs at every station I have used (*) stating you must buy before you board AND there are announcements stating the same
thing AND I have seen signs in the entrances to some of the coaches.
Plus you have now been told several times that the websites tell you to do this, and have been shown it.
Funnily enough I suspect that people who rarely travel will be the first to make sure that they have a ticket in their hand before they get on the train.
And sorry but mentioning foreign tourists looks like you are clutching at straws.

(*I can list them if you like!)

ForTheLoveOf said:

Exactly what I was about to say. To those 'in the know' it's pretty obvious, but some people (particularly foreign residents or those who rarely travel by train in the UK) may not realise the significance of collecting the ticket prior to departure.

Click to expand...

“This is not your ticket. It is not valid for travel. You must collect your ticket before travel”

I really can’t think how the train companies could put it any more clearly. I know we live in a dumbed-down world these days & people increasing seem incapable of thinking for themselves, but really, the above quote from the booking confirmation isn’t clear enough that you must get your tickets?

Deafdoggie said:

“This is not your ticket. It is not valid for travel. You must collect your ticket before travel”

I really can’t think how the train companies could put it any more clearly. I know we live in a dumbed-down world these days & people increasing seem incapable of thinking for themselves, but really, the above quote from the booking confirmation isn’t clear enough that you must get your tickets?

Click to expand...

It says that after you have paid. They cannot change the conditions after you have paid. If they said this before you paid, there could be no debate. But at the moment many sites don't, and hence we end up in this situation.

ForTheLoveOf said:

It says that after you have paid. They cannot change the conditions after you have paid. If they said this before you paid, there could be no debate. But at the moment many sites don't, and hence we end up in this situation.

Click to expand...

This is not a change to the terms at all. I think this is where you are confused. All the terms, bylaws, etc are very very clear. YOU MUST HAVE A VALID TICKET BEFORE TRAVEL...That can not, to anyone’s mind be unclear. The booking confirmation further makes it clear that that is not the ticket. It in no way changes the terms, but does add further clarity.
But, as I said before, if you are convinced you are correct, test it in court & the very best of luck with that. But I think your reluctance to do so is that really you know very well you can’t collect tickets on the train.

Deafdoggie said:

This is not a change to the terms at all. I think this is where you are confused. All the terms, bylaws, etc are very very clear. YOU MUST HAVE A VALID TICKET BEFORE TRAVEL...That can not, to anyone’s mind be unclear. The booking confirmation further makes it clear that that is not the ticket. It in no way changes the terms, but does add further clarity.
But, as I said before, if you are convinced you are correct, test it in court & the very best of luck with that. But I think your reluctance to do so is that really you know very well you can’t collect tickets on the train.

Click to expand...

I know it. But people who are not familiar with the principles of the British rail system won't necessarily.

The Byelaws are not a contractual term, they are a law. Equally, the NRCoT do not address the collection of tickets at all - nor what happens if you board at a station without ticketing facilities and have bought tickets for pickup. The NRCoT and Byelaws are, in any case, small print - a material contractual clause such as this really ought to be brought to the attention of the purchaser.

Failing to do so could well see unexpected terms such as this (the rail industry's policy that, if you start your journey as above, you may be required to buy a brand new ticket) seen as not being a(n enforceable) term of the contract. So that is what I mean when I say it is a change of the terms - it is a key term of the contract that has not been pointed out to the purchaser before payment. We would not accept it if the small print said you had to pay an additional fare to actually travel, the amount you have paid being only to pay for the cardboard and ink of the ticket. So why is it any different for the practicalities of actually collecting the ticket?

There is no reason at all why the relevant websites can't simply display the message before payment. As I have said time and again, it would simply avoid this confusion. It is so needlessly avoidable - it's almost as if the rail industry wants people to fall into the trap.

There would be no point in someone like me taking the matter to Court, as it is quite clear I couldn't argue that I didn't know. But if it happened to a foreign resident (or someone who never normally travels by train)... a much better chance given it is far from obvious for them (especially if they are used to buying on board in their country's rail system, paying for petrol after filling up, and so on).

I appreciate it's not easy to visualise what the situation is like for a non rail enthusiast/expert. But it is something that we must do, and we can't simply take the rail industry's rules and assume that everyone knows them.

ForTheLoveOf said:

But it is something that we must do, and we can't simply take the rail industry's rules and assume that everyone knows them.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but quite frankly that is rubbish. There are numerous examples across the whole of our life where there is a legal presumption that we know what the rules are without having them expalined to us in minute detail. Have you never heard the term "ignorance is no defense"?
I'm afraid that your fanaticism about matters like this is clouding your judgement.

ForTheLoveOf said:

I appreciate it's not easy to visualise what the situation is like for a non rail enthusiast/expert. But it is something that we must do, and we can't simply take the rail industry's rules and assume that everyone knows them.

Click to expand...

The reality is, no matter how much you may not like it, is that you dont have to be an enthusiast nor an expert to grasp something that has been in place since before we were all born and its only a very small minority who do not.

Llanigraham said:

As I have now said atleast twice, on TfW there are signs at every station I have used (*) stating you must buy before you board AND there are announcements stating the same
thing AND I have seen signs in the entrances to some of the coaches.
Plus you have now been told several times that the websites tell you to do this, and have been shown it.
Funnily enough I suspect that people who rarely travel will be the first to make sure that they have a ticket in their hand before they get on the train.
And sorry but mentioning foreign tourists looks like you are clutching at straws.

(*I can list them if you like!)

Click to expand...

It may well be the case that all this is said before the passenger travels, but it is not said before they pay. The moment the contract is made is when they pay. From that moment onwards, the TOC cannot change the contract without the consumer's agreement (which they are entirely entitled to withhold). No amount of signage or announcements can change the terms of a contract that has already been made. The example about less knowledgeable passengers is far from clutching straws, but if you want to see it that way, and imagine that all passengers are well knowledgeable of the rules, feel free...

ForTheLoveOf said:

I know it. But people who are not familiar with the principles of the British rail system won't necessarily.

The Byelaws are not a contractual term, they are a law. Equally, the NRCoT do not address the collection of tickets at all - nor what happens if you board at a station without ticketing facilities and have bought tickets for pickup. The NRCoT and Byelaws are, in any case, small print - a material contractual clause such as this really ought to be brought to the attention of the purchaser.

Failing to do so could well see unexpected terms such as this (the rail industry's policy that, if you start your journey as above, you may be required to buy a brand new ticket) seen as not being a(n enforceable) term of the contract.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure contract law is relevant as there is specific legislation (Byelaws and RoRA) covering it.

Bletchleyite said:

I'm not sure contract law is relevant as there is specific legislation (Byelaws and RoRA) covering it.

Click to expand...

RoRA wouldn't come into it to begin with, as the passenger would already have paid their fare (online). And Byelaw 18 wouldn't be relevant to someone boarding at a station without proper ticketing facilities. The contractual arrangements are all that regulate such a scenario. In any case, even if the Byelaws or RoRA capture an offence, that does not affect the civil liability which the parties have with respect to each other (the TOC towards the passenger, in particular).

I’m struggling to see what someone’s thought process is for the scenario that they don’t use the train often or at all (and therefore including foreign tourists)
I think it will be “I’ll look up the details, and see what times the trains are, how much it is & but some tickets. I’ll see what it says about getting them” But it could be “I’ll just turn up at the station and sort it out there”
Either way, it is all covered. However, you believe they think “I’m going to make a rail journey, I’ll look up times, fares and buy tickets. But I have no interest at all in how I’m going to get them. I guess they’ll turn up somehow” which just seems very unlikely to me.

ForTheLoveOf said:

It may well be the case that all this is said before the passenger travels, but it is not said before they pay. The moment the contract is made is when they pay. From that moment onwards, the TOC cannot change the contract without the consumer's agreement (which they are entirely entitled to withhold). No amount of signage or announcements can change the terms of a contract that has already been made. The example about less knowledgeable passengers is far from clutching straws, but if you want to see it that way, and imagine that all passengers are well knowledgeable of the rules, feel free...

Click to expand...

When you try to book a ticket with the TfW website you are told about needing the ticket to travel BEFORE you pay for it.
If you buy a Print at Home ticket you are told you must print it BEFORE you pay for it.
When I walk on to many stations there are signs stating you must have a ticket to travel BEFORE the ticket machines.
When I walk on to many stations I hear announcements stating I need to purchase a ticket BEFORE I travel and BEFORE I get to the ticket machine.
The Law has been this way for many, many years and as I have said British law has always said that "Ignorance is no defense". That has been proven many times in Court.
There was no "clutching at straws" by me. People expect to buy tickets, be that for trains, buses or other things where there is an admission charge.

Bletchleyite said:

(Interesting that it no longer implies you can't use a different station).
It looks pretty clear to me, there is nothing in there that implies that you can collect from anywhere other than a station on the list, and plenty that makes it clear that you do need to.

Click to expand...

Agreed that those screen-shots make it clear that you must obtain your ticket from one of the stations on that list. But NOTHING on those screen-shots states that you have to do so before boarding. Compared with the m-ticket option, that explicitly states that you must down-load the ticket before boarding. I have never ever been offered an e-ticket or print-at-home option (which would solve a lot of my issues), but I gather that too explicitly states that you have to print or down-load the ticket before boarding. The collect-from-station option does NOT have such wording.

For those that seem to think it important, I knew that the train I would be travelling on would be very busy, so I wanted a seat reservation, which I would not have been able to obtain from the guard on the day. However, it could also have applied if one leg of my journey had involved an advance-fare ticket that was not available from the guard on the day.

As I said, I purchased a ticket through the EMT web-site on Saturday: the ONLY option I was offered was to collect the ticket from station, and at NO time was it stated either during the booking process or on my confirmation email that I had to collect the ticket before boarding. I was asked to confirm that I realised the station I had selected wasn't my originating station, but that was all.

Agreed that we keep going around in circles, but that is because people keeping claiming that it is a requirement to collect the ticket before boarding, but so far without producing a scrap of evidence to substantiate that claim. As I keep saying, the TfW web-site clearly states that the requirement to obtain your ticket before boarding does NOT apply at stations that do not have ticket-issuing facilities.

Llanigraham said:

It is noticeable that all the TfW stations I have been on lately have signs that state you MUST have a ticket before you travel, and there are announcements stating the same.

Click to expand...

That cannot be true of stations that do not have ticket-issuing facilities, such as just about the whole of the Cambrian, as it is perfectly acceptable at such stations to board without a ticket, and to buy your ticket from the guard on the train. The TfW web-site makes it clear that you will be offered the full range of fares in such cases.

ForTheLoveOf said:

Whilst the booking site might not explicitly state that you must collect your tickets before travel, I think it ought to be pretty clear that this is the case - in other words, even if it is not explicitly stated, it may well be held to be an implied term (as paying for the ticket, and having it in your possession prior to travelling, has been the working pricinciple of railway ticketing for many decades, if not centuries).

Click to expand...

Except on "pay-train" services, on lines where the stations don't have ticket-issuing facilities, which is what are talking about on this thread, where it has been the working principle for decades that you DO NOT have to be in possession of your ticket before travelling, as you obtain your ticket from the guard on the train.

ForTheLoveOf said:

“This is not your ticket. It is not valid for travel. You must collect your ticket before travel”

Click to expand...

There is no such wording on the confirmation that I received. Here is a copy of an EMT booking confirmation:

Booking Confirmation
Your payment was successful. Your booking confirmation will be emailed to XXXXX
Journey: XXXXX to XXXXX £44.50
Getting your tickets: Ticket collection machine
Ref XXXXXXX
Tickets will be ready for collection 15 minute(s) after booking.
Collect your ticket(s) from the ticket machine at XXXXX.
You will need your collection reference number and any valid debit/credit card to collect your tickets. (for ID only, it will not be charged)
Outward - Thursday 1st November 2018
Depart Arrive Seating Travel by
Reservation not requested Transport For Wales
Reservation not requested Crosscountry
Reservation not possible East Midlands Trains
Return - Sunday 4th November 2018
Depart Arrive Seating Travel by
Reservation not possible East Midlands Trains
Reservation not requested Crosscountry
Reservation not requested Transport For Wales
Ticket details
OFF-PEAK RETURN £44.50
1 Adult(s) Senior Railcard Fare @ £44.50
Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
Flexible ticket only valid at specific off-peak times of the day.
SENIOR RAILCARD : You must carry your railcard with you when you travel. Failure to do so will result in the full undiscounted fare being payable.
Total payment

And as others have pointed out, a condition imposed AFTER you have completed the purchase is invalid.

To my mind it is very simple, either there is a clear, written requirement that you must collect your ticket before boarding, that is made reasonably obvious at the time you purchase your ticket, or there isn't. Full-stop. I can't find such a requirement, nobody else here has evidently been able to, and I have been carefully through the ticket-purchasing process without it ever being stated.

If there were such a requirement, it would effectively mean I was being required NOT to buy my ticket before boarding, which would be preposterous. Any TOC who took someone to court because they HAD bought a ticket would look ridiculous, and would run the real risk of being pilloried by the press and public.

But there is a more important point here. It has been a long-standing principle that people should not be put at a disadvantage because the train company has made the decision not to provide ticket-issuing facilities at their station. It is not the passenger's fault that a station does not have ticket-issuing facilities, so the passenger should not be disadvantaged. That is why there is a requirement that the full range of fares should be available when buying your ticket on-board, not just the ordinary full-fare that would apply if you board at station that does have ticket-issuing facilities. With the train companies' increasing emphasis on advance fares and on-line promotions, that inherently cannot be bought from the guard on the day, it is important that people who board at stations that do not have ticket-issuing facilities are not denied these low fares. That is why I believe the requirements are worded the way they are.

alistairlees said:

No, you are making it all more complex than it is.
You should be able to go on to any retailer website and, if self-print is available for the journey you are making, then you should be offered it. That's it. Like with any other ticket fulfilment type.

Click to expand...

I don't think you are right. I have just been on the EMT web-site, to buy a ticket from Derby to Birmingham for tomorrow. Cross-Country are the only operator on the Derby-Birmingham route, as far as I am aware, so print-at-home should be available. I was not offered it on the EMT site. I was only offered m-ticket or collect-from-station.

Belperpete said:

Agreed that those screen-shots make it clear that you must obtain your ticket from one of the stations on that list. But NOTHING on those screen-shots states that you have to do so before boarding.

Click to expand...

How would you propose to obtain a ticket from a TVM at a station when you are not physically located at that station because you're already on a train?

But there is a more important point here. It has been a long-standing principle that people should not be put at a disadvantage because the train company has made the decision not to provide ticket-issuing facilities at their station

Click to expand...

I wouldn't agree. It's long been the case that Advances have not been available from such stations, nor have monthly seasons etc.

Belperpete said:

I don't think you are right. I have just been on the EMT web-site, to buy a ticket from Derby to Birmingham for tomorrow. Cross-Country are the only operator on the Derby-Birmingham route, as far as I am aware, so print-at-home should be available. I was not offered it on the EMT site. I was only offered m-ticket or collect-from-station.

Click to expand...

In the same post I also said:

With the massive rollout of barcode tickets generally at the moment, you probably won't get consistent results from one TOC (or independent retailer) to the next as to which journeys can be fulfilled to self-print / eTicket / m-ticket. But that will all even out over the next few months.

Click to expand...

Selective quoting is never going to help any argument. As it happens, I also do know a thing or two about this particular area.

Bletchleyite said:

How would you propose to obtain a ticket from a TVM at a station when you are not physically located at that station because you're already on a train?

Click to expand...

I had been thinking the same thing. You are travelling from A to B. The retailing website offers the opportunity to collect from (and, in many cases, defaults to) location A for ticket collection. You choose that. You then get on the train at location A, most likely walking past or very close to a ticket machine from where you could collect the ticket, but elect not to. You then plan to collect the ticket when and where exactly (or presumably, think that a ticket is not really needed)? It really does not make any sense.

I would say that the principle really has been very simple for a long time: you pay and obtain a ticket before you travel, where you can do so; if you can't do so before you travel, then you do so at the earliest available opportunity (such as on the train from the guard, or at your destination station).

There are now areas of post-pay of course (such as in London, and in other areas soon), but those still require you to have valid means to identify your journey and to be billed (in arrears).

I can't see what's so difficult here. There are plenty of other things you are not told to do before travelling, but are nevertheless implied or expected. Not smoking on stations; not behaving in anti-social manner; not breaching the byelaws; not travelling somewhere beyond the geographical validity of your ticket; not re-using your ticket; not copying your ticket and giving it to someone else, etc. Most people manage to get by fine, even though no-one tells them about these things.

alistairlees said:

In the same post I also said:
you probably won't get consistent results from one TOC (or independent retailer) to the next

Click to expand...

Which I think makes my original point: if there is no consistency in when print-at-home is available, and so no way for someone as reasonably experienced as myself to find out if it is available, how on earth can Joe Public be expected to know?

Belperpete said:

Which I think makes my original point: if there is no consistency in when print-at-home is available, and so no way for someone as reasonably experienced as myself to find out if it is available, how on earth can Joe Public be expected to know?

Click to expand...

See the other part of my previous quote:

But that will all even out over the next few months.

Click to expand...

There's a lot of change going on at the moment. It's all good for passengers / customers.

Bletchleyite said:

How would you propose to obtain a ticket from a TVM at a station when you are not physically located at that station because you're already on a train?

Click to expand...

In the case of say a Barmouth to Euston ticket, I would pick it up at Birmingham when I change trains. This is the standard procedure when you are travelling from a station that does have a TVM but it is not working, the guard tells you to collect the ticket when you change trains.
But at the end of the day, it's not my problem. It is up to the train company to provide the necessary facilities.

Bletchleyite said:

I wouldn't agree. It's long been the case that Advances have not been available from such stations, nor have monthly seasons etc.

Click to expand...

Advances are available from such stations. You book them on-line, and collect at the first suitable point during your journey, as above.
The procedure for buying monthly and longer seasons is well-established. You buy a single to a station on your route that does have a ticket office, and get them to re-imburse your ticket off the cost of the season. I have used this procedure many times.

Belperpete said:

In the case of say a Barmouth to Euston ticket, I would pick it up at Birmingham when I change trains. This is the standard procedure when you are travelling from a station that does have a TVM but it is not working, the guard tells you to collect the ticket when you change trains.
But at the end of the day, it's not my problem. It is up to the train company to provide the necessary facilities.

Click to expand...

Slight problem with your arguement that does make it "your problem".
Barmouth Station has a Ticket Office, Monday to Saturday, open 0845 to 1645
And in many instances your first opportunity to get your ticket would be at Machynlleth.

Bletchleyite said:

I wouldn't agree. It's long been the case that Advances have not been available from such stations, nor have monthly seasons etc.

Click to expand...

I don't know where you get that idea from.

You can book an Advance ticket on the EMT site now (2240) to go from Bamford to St Pancras tomorrow morning. The option to collect from a ticket machine is offered.
Bamford is not offered as an available station for collection. If you select Sheffield (the change point) from the 'Available stations' list the only message displayed is "The station at which you have selected to collect your ticket is not the station from which your train will leave. If this is correct please click on Continue to proceed."
If you click Continue, the next screen states "Collect your ticket(s) from the ticket machine at Sheffield."
The next step is Proceed to Payment.

An unsuspecting passenger will quite reasonably follow all the steps above and expect to collect the ticket at Sheffield.

On further investigation, it would appear that I don't need to collect my ticket at all!

The Railway Byelaws state:
No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) (the Byelaws requiring you to be in possession of a ticket) if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;
And the National Conditions of Carriage, which state:
You must have in your possession a valid Ticket before you board a train unless one of the following circumstances applies: (a) At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order. ..... In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey.

So, if the station where I start my journey has no working TVM, I am officially excused the requirement to be in possession of a ticket not just for the first train I board, but for the rest of my journey. And if I have already bought my ticket on-line, I have inherently met the requirement to buy an appropriate ticket for my journey as soon as reasonably able. So if I never collect my ticket, I will not have contravened the Byelaws nor the NCoC! So, even if a train company does state that the booking confirmation doesn't count as a ticket, who cares, as long as I have bought a ticket, and the station where I start my journey from has no working TVM, it appears that I don't actually need to be in possession of that ticket at all, for the whole of my journey!

Even better, there is nothing I can find in either the Byelaws or the NCoC that says you are required to provide proof that you have purchased the ticket!! So no need to even show the guard the Booking Confirmation.

Before anyone jumps in, there is an information panel in the NCoC that says:
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.
However, the NCoC clearly states that "these (information) panels are not intended to have contractual effect and do not form part of our contract with you." So you will not be in breach of contract if you ignore the information panel.

But if you can't produce your actual ticket on request you have either to pay for the journey again or provide your name and address and then you can present your arguments to the company's prosecutions department later and impress them with your legal knowledge!

Belperpete said:

On further investigation, it would appear that I don't need to collect my ticket at all!

The Railway Byelaws state:
No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) (the Byelaws requiring you to be in possession of a ticket) if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;
And the National Conditions of Carriage, which state:
You must have in your possession a valid Ticket before you board a train unless one of the following circumstances applies: (a) At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order. ..... In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey.

So, if the station where I start my journey has no working TVM, I am officially excused the requirement to be in possession of a ticket not just for the first train I board, but for the rest of my journey. And if I have already bought my ticket on-line, I have inherently met the requirement to buy an appropriate ticket for my journey as soon as reasonably able. So if I never collect my ticket, I will not have contravened the Byelaws nor the NCoC! So, even if a train company does state that the booking confirmation doesn't count as a ticket, who cares, as long as I have bought a ticket, and the station where I start my journey from has no working TVM, it appears that I don't actually need to be in possession of that ticket at all, for the whole of my journey!

Even better, there is nothing I can find in either the Byelaws or the NCoC that says you are required to provide proof that you have purchased the ticket!! So no need to even show the guard the Booking Confirmation.

Before anyone jumps in, there is an information panel in the NCoC that says:
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.
However, the NCoC clearly states that "these (information) panels are not intended to have contractual effect and do not form part of our contract with you." So you will not be in breach of contract if you ignore the information panel.

Click to expand...

I went into Tesco yesterday. You know what? Not a single sign to say I had to pay for my shopping. I’ll just help myself next time.
Somethings are just common sense.

Belperpete said:

So, if the station where I start my journey has no working TVM, I am officially excused the requirement to be in possession of a ticket not just for the first train I board, but for the rest of my journey

Click to expand...

No, you're not. You're excused it until such time as an opportunity to purchase one arises, which might be on the first train or, if the interchange time is in excess of the minimum, at the interchange station.

Note that the rule states purchase, not collect.

Belperpete said:

On further investigation, it would appear that I don't need to collect my ticket at all!

The Railway Byelaws state:
No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) (the Byelaws requiring you to be in possession of a ticket) if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;
And the National Conditions of Carriage, which state:
You must have in your possession a valid Ticket before you board a train unless one of the following circumstances applies: (a) At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order. ..... In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey.

So, if the station where I start my journey has no working TVM, I am officially excused the requirement to be in possession of a ticket not just for the first train I board, but for the rest of my journey. And if I have already bought my ticket on-line, I have inherently met the requirement to buy an appropriate ticket for my journey as soon as reasonably able. So if I never collect my ticket, I will not have contravened the Byelaws nor the NCoC! So, even if a train company does state that the booking confirmation doesn't count as a ticket, who cares, as long as I have bought a ticket, and the station where I start my journey from has no working TVM, it appears that I don't actually need to be in possession of that ticket at all, for the whole of my journey!

Even better, there is nothing I can find in either the Byelaws or the NCoC that says you are required to provide proof that you have purchased the ticket!! So no need to even show the guard the Booking Confirmation.

Before anyone jumps in, there is an information panel in the NCoC that says:
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.
However, the NCoC clearly states that "these (information) panels are not intended to have contractual effect and do not form part of our contract with you." So you will not be in breach of contract if you ignore the information panel.

Click to expand...

If you would like to try out what you are suggesting, be my guest. But do so at your own risk. I personally would not recommend it. Perhaps you should try it on a few occasions and on different routes with different TOCs to really get a true representation of how such conduct would be dealt with on the National Rail Network. I would worry thought that you might quickly fail the "attitude test" when presenting these arguments to the staff you would encounter.

For the record, most rail staff are very reasonable if there is a genuine problem in collecting tickets, such as if the TVM has failed.

Belperpete said:

On further investigation, it would appear that I don't need to collect my ticket at all!

The Railway Byelaws state:
No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) (the Byelaws requiring you to be in possession of a ticket) if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;
And the National Conditions of Carriage, which state:
You must have in your possession a valid Ticket before you board a train unless one of the following circumstances applies: (a) At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order. ..... In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey.

So, if the station where I start my journey has no working TVM, I am officially excused the requirement to be in possession of a ticket not just for the first train I board, but for the rest of my journey. And if I have already bought my ticket on-line, I have inherently met the requirement to buy an appropriate ticket for my journey as soon as reasonably able. So if I never collect my ticket, I will not have contravened the Byelaws nor the NCoC! So, even if a train company does state that the booking confirmation doesn't count as a ticket, who cares, as long as I have bought a ticket, and the station where I start my journey from has no working TVM, it appears that I don't actually need to be in possession of that ticket at all, for the whole of my journey!

Even better, there is nothing I can find in either the Byelaws or the NCoC that says you are required to provide proof that you have purchased the ticket!! So no need to even show the guard the Booking Confirmation.

Before anyone jumps in, there is an information panel in the NCoC that says:
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.
However, the NCoC clearly states that "these (information) panels are not intended to have contractual effect and do not form part of our contract with you." So you will not be in breach of contract if you ignore the information panel.

Click to expand...

Please note the wording in red.
That does NOT say anything about the whole journey.

And buying a ticket online does not prove that YOU have a ticket, since you could have purchased it for someone else. I suggest that you read the numerous cases on here concerning this matter.

I look forward to you actually testing your ideas; see you in Court!