Chaos that could easily have been avoided

TUC · 6 Dec 2018

I was waiting at Leeds tonight for the Northern 1736 to Manchester Victoria from platform 12a. Around 1730 a TPE train arrived onto the platform. The announcement was obscured by the engine noise but 'platform 12A' and 'Manchester' were audible. I could see it was the wrong TOC but a number of passengers boarded the train, particularly since the display screen continued to state that the 1736 to Manchester Victoria was at the platform. Time passed and the TPE train remained there and the display screen continued to say it was the 1736.

Eventually at 1735 there was an announcement that the 1736 was departing from 12C and the display screen changed to say that the 12A train was the 1752 to Manchester Piccadilly. Cue hordes of passengers running down the platform.

OK, there may have been reasons for a late notice switch of platform for the TPE train, but why pick a platform which would not only now be blocked for 20 minutes, it would be sitting where a train to the same city but a different route was due to leave before it?

Even if there was no alternative to using 12A, why leave the screen with the wrong train displayed and only correct the error one minute before the 1736 was due to depart?

So much that could have been avoided..

RailUK Forums

Starmill · 6 Dec 2018

Surely a 3 car train in 12A does not block a train in 12C in?

TUC · 6 Dec 2018

The 1736 was originally meant to be departing from 12A. 12C , although it forms part of the same length of platform, is quite a bit further down the station and not visible from 12A.

30907 · 6 Dec 2018

Looks like a last minute switch for the TPE which couldn't access 13 owing to a delayed Northern service. It's not exactly unusual to use 11 and 12 for terminating trains as the centre road gives flexibility.
It's also common sense for a train terminating from the west and heading back there to use the west end of the platform, and for a train arriving from the east to use the east end. In fact it is the only option, as running the TPE train into 12c would have blocked the Northern train altogether.

So excellent work by the signallers at the last minute, the only valid complaint is that the change of platform should have been communicated a couple of minutes quicker, so that the Northern train could have left on time instead of 3 late.

Flyingsprinter · 6 Dec 2018

If what the op is saying is true and the tpe train entered the platform at 17:30 and the screens weren’t changed until 17:35 a minute before departure the question has to be asked what exactly was the 5 minute hold up to change the passenger information screens? That is the issue. It’s wpuldve been evident as soon as the tpe train was cleared into 12a which would’ve been at least a couple of minuets before the train arrived that the northern service was never going to be able to depart from 12a, so why the hold up?

yorkie · 7 Dec 2018

I witnessed an occasion at Leeds where a train was advertised from Platform 15 but it actually pulled into Platform 12. I told some people about this as I saw it on the Open Train Times map. The screens continued to give the wrong information even when the train was fully in the platform and ready to leave.

I have not witnessed this anywhere else that can immediately recall.

So perhaps there is some issue specific to Leeds?

J-P_L · 7 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
I witnessed an occasion at Leeds where a train was advertised from Platform 15 but it actually pulled into Platform 12. I told some people about this as I saw it on the Open Train Times map. The screens continued to give the wrong information even when the train was fully in the platform and ready to leave.

I have not witnessed this anywhere else that can immediately recall.

So perhaps there is some issue specific to Leeds?

I’ve had similar thing at Newcastle with a last minute platform change from 11 to 7.

Only problem was all the screens continued to show platform 11 wel after the train arrived... and did so until a manual announcement was finally made after a mad dash to get passengers across. The train left 15L as a result as all the passengers were on P11!

embers25 · 7 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
I witnessed an occasion at Leeds where a train was advertised from Platform 15 but it actually pulled into Platform 12. I told some people about this as I saw it on the Open Train Times map. The screens continued to give the wrong information even when the train was fully in the platform and ready to leave.

I have not witnessed this anywhere else that can immediately recall.

So perhaps there is some issue specific to Leeds?

At Reading last week the 0904 to Redhill was switched to plat 15 from Platform 5 at the last minute (a very long walk away) but the screens at Reading never changed from showing no platform at all. It did eventually get cancelled due to a fault but this is not the first time the screens at Reading have been wrong.

Failed Unit · 7 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
I witnessed an occasion at Leeds where a train was advertised from Platform 15 but it actually pulled into Platform 12. I told some people about this as I saw it on the Open Train Times map. The screens continued to give the wrong information even when the train was fully in the platform and ready to leave.

I have not witnessed this anywhere else that can immediately recall.

So perhaps there is some issue specific to Leeds?

Happens at Finsbury Park a lot as well. You often get 12 cars (in terms of spread across the platform) of people waiting on platform 2 for a Thameslink train. It pulls into 4 and the announcement doesn’t normally take place until you see it.

This may be the first people running the PIS know about it.

Lots of people miss it as they can’t get between the platform quick enough.

If only the PIS was linked to the signalling system. (Or if it is i wonder why it doesn’t move things as soon as the route is set)

evoluzione · 7 Dec 2018

There has been an increase in wrong routes offered and odd platforming at Leeds over last couple of months.

A TPE through service to Scarborough ended up on platform 10 a while back.

Notice up informing us of “New Signallers” in the box, and to be extra vigilant.

robbeech · 7 Dec 2018

Failed Unit said:
Lots of people miss it as they can’t get between the platform quick enough.

And of course those that do miss it will not have a claim because the records will show the train leaving on time.

whhistle · 7 Dec 2018

Failed Unit said:
If only the PIS was linked to the signalling system. (Or if it is i wonder why it doesn’t move things as soon as the route is set)

It is. I believe it's across the network now.
However, in railway terms it's relatively new being only operational in the main for the past 3 years or so.
Train companies have different information systems though, so some may not pick up the change automatically (even though they should - as that's the point in it!).

That's why if you look online, at apps, at the station, train delays should all show the same information (IE minutes late).
Some platforms are supressed until the last minute (like at Euston), but other stations platform info is available well in advance.

underbank · 7 Dec 2018

whhistle said:
It is. I believe it's across the network now.
However, in railway terms it's relatively new being only operational in the main for the past 3 years or so.
Train companies have different information systems though, so some may not pick up the change automatically (even though they should - as that's the point in it!).

That's why if you look online, at apps, at the station, train delays should all show the same information (IE minutes late).
Some platforms are supressed until the last minute (like at Euston), but other stations platform info is available well in advance.

I wonder how you can have a "ghost" train then? I.e. a train that actually isn't shown on the station display system at all. I've see it at Carnforth a couple of times for the Sunday morning 9.31 from Barrow to Preston. I know it's on it's way because it's on realtimetrains, but at the station itself, nothing on the PIS. Then, at the appropriate time, there it comes around the bend, still nothing on the station PIS. Can't understand how it happens if it's supposed to be an automated system. Is it just that there's a skeleton staff in the control room(s) on a Sunday morning so no-one to change it. (Caveat, I think this happens because Northern don't know it's going to run until the morning itself to see if staff turn up, so maybe they delete it from their systems "just in case" and there's no one to put it back on the system when it actually does run??)

Deafdoggie · 7 Dec 2018

Going on holiday a few years ago, we (alas) had no choice but to change at Birmingham New Street one Sunday morning. We arrived into platform 1.
The departure boards showed the Plymouth train as departing from platform 8. Over we went.
An announcement said platform alteration, now platform 10. But the PIS kept showing 8. No train in 8, but a XC voyager in 10. But as it started at Birmingham it was locked, shut-down & no destination information on it.
Still the PIS said 8, but the announcements said 10!
Then the train unlocked (but still not displaying any information) hesitantly people got on.
Eventually, with about 1 minute to go, the TM made an announcement, which the whole train fell silent for “Welcome aboard Ladies & Gentleman. This is the CrossCountry train to...(long pause)...Plymouth” The sigh of relief from everyone could be heard!

gnolife · 7 Dec 2018

Partick (Westbound) and Hyndland (Eastbound) tend to update the screens very late, which isn't much of a problem if the train has a different destination to the one you intend (say, you end up on a Milngavie instead of a Balloch service) as it is easy to notice that it's the wrong train from the announcements and change at the next stop, but can be problematic if the consecutive trains have the same destination but different routes (Dalmuir via Singer or Yoker, or Cumbernauld via Duke Street or Motherwell) as you'd have to clock that the next stop announced on board is wrong, even thiugh the destination is correct.

Mathew S · 7 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
I witnessed an occasion at Leeds where a train was advertised from Platform 15 but it actually pulled into Platform 12. I told some people about this as I saw it on the Open Train Times map. The screens continued to give the wrong information even when the train was fully in the platform and ready to leave.

I have not witnessed this anywhere else that can immediately recall.

So perhaps there is some issue specific to Leeds?

Happens all the time at Man Victoria. If you travel everyday you begin to know what to watch out for so you can pre-empt the displays but for occasional travellers it must be a nightmare.

Fearless · 7 Dec 2018

Failed Unit said:
Lots of people miss it as they can’t get between the platform quick enough.

Couple this with the OP's comment "The announcement was obscured by the engine noise" and you have a nightmare situation for those who are elderly, disabled, hearing-impaired, less mobile etc. Surely in these days of disability legislation, there should be some way of ensuring that a platform change is handled in such a way that all passengers can make it?

TUC · 7 Dec 2018

Fearless said:
Couple this with the OP's comment "The announcement was obscured by the engine noise" and you have a nightmare situation for those who are elderly, disabled, hearing-impaired, less mobile etc. Surely in these days of disability legislation, there should be some way of ensuring that a platform change is handled in such a way that all passengers can make it?

Even this announcement, as far as I could make it out, was about the TPE teain, not the chsnge of platform for the Northern train. Even if it took a few minutes to identify 3ehich platform would now be used for the Northern service, a holding announcement a3uch as 'passengers for the 1736 to Manchester Victoria should wsit on the platform and await further announcements' would have helped,

BurtonM · 8 Dec 2018

TPE and CIS systems don't go. Where information about which way round a set is even available, it's always wrong.

whhistle · 11 Dec 2018

underbank said:
I wonder how you can have a "ghost" train then? I.e. a train that actually isn't shown on the station display system at all.

There is (or was) a tick box saying "suppress service" which stops it displaying on info screens for the selected station.

Same for platforms, so it'll show but display no platform.

joshy.fre_2003 · 11 Dec 2018

BurtonM said:
TPE and CIS systems don't go. Where information about which way round a set is even available, it's always wrong.

I was waiting for a Newcastle 185 from Manchester Pic a few weeks ago, screens telling us it was a 4 car train!! :rolleyes:

crosscity · 11 Dec 2018

yorkie said:
So perhaps there is some issue specific to Leeds?

You could be right.

In 1972 the rush hour Calder Valley, Ilkley and Skipton trains tended to leave from platforms 1, 2 and 3 (the West End bay platforms). The services were all operated by various types of BR blue dmu's, and you might get up to three units on one platform going to different places.

At the last minute the front unit forming the Manchester (via Halifax) train which I was on, was turned into the Ilkley. There was a muffled tannoy announcement which no-one could hear on the train. We set off and were taken to Ilkley! I was not the only one caught out - a reporter from the Halifax Evening Courier was also on board, and wrote a light-hearted piece, a copy of which I still have.

Marton · 11 Dec 2018

Middlesbrough frequently shows a train at a platform after its left, or a Nunthorpe train as a Saltburn one

Chaos that could easily have been avoided

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

On Moderation

Member

Member

Member