Scottish shop owner ‘won’t hire staff who rely on ScotRail’

cb a1 · 11 Dec 2018

Some people absolutely need to be at a particular location at a particular time, some people generally need to be at a particular location at a particular time, some people generally desire to be at a particular location at a particular time.

There are at least three unimodal ways to travel from Fife to Edinburgh: rail, bus and car and if you go multi-modal, many combinations including adding in the tram.

IMO, it is an employee's responsibility to identify what category they work in and make their travel arrangements accordingly.

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Typhoon · 11 Dec 2018

scotraildriver said:
Working as a train driver obviously me being late for work can cause huge disruption to the service and other people. My commute to work (car) takes 25 mins but I give myself a full hour every day, because every so often something happens, an accident, the M8 is a car park etc. Most days I'm at work far too early but I'd rather do that than cause problems for my work and our passengers. Most Scotail employees do the same. Things happen and sometimes people need to cut themselves a bit of slack.

Exactly. The director of Hanover Healthfoods would have plenty to complain about if the employee was late because a train driver had cut it fine and was caught up in a traffic jam!

(My embolding.)

pemma · 11 Dec 2018

Kite159 said:
The location of the shop appears to be less than 5 minutes walk from Edinburgh (located on Hanover Street)

At a rough guess for a 09:30 start I would say her "aim for" train is the 08:10 from Dundee, which I suspect is where the issues come from as the train is likely to be busy with other Fife commuters (and probably a few coming all the way from Dundee). Single 170 with maybe a 158 attached?

That service was 10 minutes late yesterday and 7 minutes late today.

I also notice she is expected to open the shop at 09:30, not expected to start work at 09:30. Presumably there's a number of tasks which must be undertaken before the shop is open e.g. alarm deactivated, lights on, removing cash from safe etc.

fowler9 · 11 Dec 2018

If I could just add to what I said before whilst I agree that unreliable public transport is frustrating we still have a responsibility to make sure we allow enough time to make sure we perform our duties. It does bug me I have to aim to bring work 45 mins before my shift started though. I am now going to aim for 55 mins which is annoying.

LAX54 · 11 Dec 2018

scotraildriver said:
For 'several hours' read 28 minutes.
And I don't find it funny. I was in a similar situation. I needed to be contactable from 08:00 so I aimed to be in work for 07:30 so if a train or bus was late or cancelled I would still be OK because I knew no-one else would pick up the load. Others who did the same job did likewise, whatever mode of transport they used. Stuff happens. We just knew that if we were late, it inconvenienced others.

Working as a train driver obviously me being late for work can cause huge disruption to the service and other people. My commute to work (car) takes 25 mins but I give myself a full hour every day, because every so often something happens, an accident, the M8 is a car park etc. Most days I'm at work far too early but I'd rather do that than cause problems for my work and our passengers. Most Scotail employees do the same. Things happen and sometimes people need to cut themselves a bit of slack.[/QUOTE]

Commuters are an odd breed,

you only have to look at a commuter station in the morning peak times, if their train is booked to depart at xx15 mins past the hour, rest assured they would be parking their car and running to the platform just 2 or 3 mins before train is due to depart, have seen them with an IC service in the platform for London, rushing through the booking office, moaning at the 'gates', run down the stairs, through the subway, up the other side, hot foot it down towards the train, only to hear the whistle blow from the Guard and doors locked, followed by cursing and swearing of said passenger(s) !
So the next day you'd think it would be different, but no, same persons, same routine ! LOL

I drive to my place of work, it is 10 miles and takes during the day 15 mins, but I always allow a minimum of 45 mins, just in case there is trouble en route, 8 times out of 10 I am at work 30+ mins early, but not late! the other two times, I still arrive on time, even though I have been delayed en route, you can't assume that you will be on time each an every day, you have to build in 'delay' time as a normal feature.

squizzler · 11 Dec 2018

Why not just amend hours to open the shop a little later? Hippies are never up that early anyway, and I'm sure that they can wait till 9:45 for their lentils

The above is only good natured joking of course. I know somebody who commutes on the Heart of Wales line to the health food shop at Llandrinodod - probably one of only a handful of people who commute on that railway.

robbeech · 11 Dec 2018

squizzler said:
Why not just amend hours to open the shop a little later? Hippies are never up that early anyway, and I'm sure that they can wait till 9:45 for their lentils

The above is only good natured joking of course. I know somebody who commutes on the Heart of Wales line to the health food shop at Llandrinodod - probably one of only a handful of people who commute on that railway.

A little like the argument of scheduling your meeting in Birmingham 20 minutes later to save on HS2?

DanDaDriver · 11 Dec 2018

scotraildriver said:
Working as a train driver obviously me being late for work can cause huge disruption to the service and other people. My commute to work (car) takes 25 mins but I give myself a full hour every day, because every so often something happens, an accident, the M8 is a car park etc. Most days I'm at work far too early but I'd rather do that than cause problems for my work and our passengers. Most Scotail employees do the same. Things happen and sometimes people need to cut themselves a bit of slack.

Top NTS there.

43096 · 11 Dec 2018

swills said:
Commuters are an odd breed, you only have to look at a commuter station in the morning peak times, if their train is booked to depart at xx15 mins past the hour, rest assured they would be parking their car and running to the platform just 2 or 3 mins before train is due to depart, have seen them with an IC service in the platform for London, rushing through the booking office, moaning at the 'gates', run down the stairs, through the subway, up the other side, hot foot it down towards the train, only to hear the whistle blow from the Guard and doors locked, followed by cursing and swearing of said passenger(s) !
So the next day you'd think it would be different, but no, same persons, same routine ! LOL

I drive to my place of work, it is 10 miles and takes during the day 15 mins, but I always allow a minimum of 45 mins, just in case there is trouble en route, 8 times out of 10 I am at work 30+ mins early, but not late! the other two times, I still arrive on time, even though I have been delayed en route, you can't assume that you will be on time each an every day, you have to build in 'delay' time as a normal feature.

Commuters are indeed an odd breed. For instance drivers allowing a 200% contingency on a journey of 15 minutes!

robbeech · 11 Dec 2018

43096 said:
Commuters are indeed an odd breed. For instance drivers allowing a 200% contingency on a journey of 15 minutes!

They have made it clear that sometimes they require that amount of time. Would it have therefore been acceptable for them to have been late causing a cancellation to a service?

Bertie the bus · 11 Dec 2018

swills said:
Looking at times over the past 14 days, there are 3 trains to get her there on time, and in those 14 days, they were at the most 10 late, with two days in those 14 1B09 was 20 late. (and even 1B09 wold have got her there in time for work when it was 20 late !)

Right. So somebody who needs to be at work at 09:30 at a shop 5 minutes from Waverley should in fact aim to get to Waverley at 08:44 because the trains don’t run on time. Of course.

Northhighland · 11 Dec 2018

cb a1 said:
Some people absolutely need to be at a particular location at a particular time, some people generally need to be at a particular location at a particular time, some people generally desire to be at a particular location at a particular time.

There are at least three unimodal ways to travel from Fife to Edinburgh: rail, bus and car and if you go multi-modal, many combinations including adding in the tram.

IMO, it is an employee's responsibility to identify what category they work in and make their travel arrangements accordingly.

So what is the purpose of the railway then? the taxpayers and Passengers fork out huge amount of cash for the privilege of travelling by rail. Is adherence to the published timetable an unreasonable expectation? It appears the railway is run for the convenience of staff rather than passengers.

Dieseldriver · 12 Dec 2018

43096 said:
Commuters are indeed an odd breed. For instance drivers allowing a 200% contingency on a journey of 15 minutes!

So it's a problem for a Train Driver to be professional enough to allow extra time to get to work punctually and more importantly for safety, in an unhurried and relaxed state?

adrock1976 · 12 Dec 2018

Going back to the opening post of this thread, the cynic in me thinks that the story in the local rag is a bit of free advertising for the store.

scotlass · 12 Dec 2018

Long time lurker on here. I enjoy this forum, although don't pretend to have a clue what most of the technical terms mean.

The business in question here has been in its Edinburgh location many years and is a well known name to most established Edinburgh residents. The commute into Edinburgh must be a nightmare for most people who come from Fife, Stirlingshire or Tayside, but if that were me, I would expect my staff to use common sense in taking travel time into consideration plus a bit of contingency irrespective of their mode of transport. The general consensus is that most have read the article as the owner having a dig at both Abellio Scotrail and the staff member.

cb a1 · 12 Dec 2018

Northhighland said:
So what is the purpose of the railway then? the taxpayers and Passengers fork out huge amount of cash for the privilege of travelling by rail. Is adherence to the published timetable an unreasonable expectation? It appears the railway is run for the convenience of staff rather than passengers.

Taxpayers and users fork out huge amounts of cash for travelling by all modes - (roads don't build and maintain themselves either). It would be wonderful if all modes of travel were reliable but reality isn't like that. There is a dminishing return on investment as reliability improves. In summary, Yes it is an unreasonable expectation for any mode to deliver 100% adherence to the published timetable.

Equally, I wuold say the current performance of Scotrail is also unreasonable. On a personal level, I've had 5 delay repays in the last month against none in the previous 12 months but equally we have to be realistic that no system will be perfect. [Top Down] I do expect Scotrail, Network Rail and Transport Scotland to be held to account by Parliament for the performance of the system. [Bottom Up] However, I also expect that individuals to take responsibility for their own journeys and it is unreasonable to expect perfection.

I would also note that I know a few people in the bus and road industry. They also suffer from a focus on the bus and the road respectively rather than the passenger ...

noddingdonkey · 12 Dec 2018

Typhoon said:
I needed to be contactable from 08:00 so I aimed to be in work for 07:30 so if a train or bus was late or cancelled I would still be OK because I knew no-one else would pick up the load. Others who did the same job did likewise, whatever mode of transport they used. Stuff happens. We just knew that if we were late, it inconvenienced others.

All well and good if you have that flexibility. We don't know this person's circumstances, it could easily be that the service they take is the first one available after getting kids to school etc.

The timetable says that train will get her to work in good time, and she is entitled to expect that for the vast majority of occasions it will do so.

underbank · 12 Dec 2018

swills said:
Commuters are an odd breed, you only have to look at a commuter station in the morning peak times, if their train is booked to depart at xx15 mins past the hour, rest assured they would be parking their car and running to the platform just 2 or 3 mins before train is due to depart, have seen them with an IC service in the platform for London, rushing through the booking office, moaning at the 'gates', run down the stairs, through the subway, up the other side, hot foot it down towards the train, only to hear the whistle blow from the Guard and doors locked, followed by cursing and swearing of said passenger(s) !
So the next day you'd think it would be different, but no, same persons, same routine ! LOL

It's not "commuters" that are an odd breed. Those same people will be "last minute" for everything they do. They'll be the ones parking up at Tesco at 3.55 on a Sunday afternoon. It's in their DNA. As an accountant, I have the exact same group of clients who bring in their tax return paperwork (usually a disorganised carrier bag of screwed up paperwork) in January and just "assume" I'll work weekends and evenings to get their tax returns submitted before the deadline - they'll be the ones who leave it too late to catch a train! Luckily, in terms of rail passengers, shoppers and tax clients, the vast majority have the ability to organise themselves and thus don't attract the attention, so by and large, go unnoticed. You can't tar everyone with the same brush. Some people are disorganised muppets in everything they do - luckily a minority.

underbank · 12 Dec 2018

noddingdonkey said:
The timetable says that train will get her to work in good time, and she is entitled to expect that

I find it hilarious that there's so much emphasis on faster trains etc to get you "there" 10 minutes earlier, but then at the same time, you're told to get an earlier train in case it's late or cancelled so you don't miss your meeting etc. So just what is the point? Why not concentrate on making the service reliable instead of faster?

43096 · 12 Dec 2018

Dieseldriver said:
So it's a problem for a Train Driver to be professional enough to allow extra time to get to work punctually and more importantly for safety, in an unhurried and relaxed state?

Errrrrrr. Where does “swills” say he/she is a train driver? And my reference to “drivers” probably should have been “car drivers”

baz962 · 12 Dec 2018

43096 said:
Errrrrrr. Where does “swills” say he/she is a train driver? And my reference to “drivers” probably should have been “car drivers”

Errrr , the very first word's of swills post say's , working as a train driver me being late can cause a delay.

fowler9 · 12 Dec 2018

It is funny in a way. If the bus service I use to get to work was held to the same punctuality standards as I am by my employer there would be carnage. My employer can sack me for being two minutes late ten times in two years. My bus has been more than two minutes late almost every day for the last five years. Ha ha.

43096 · 12 Dec 2018

baz962 said:
Errrr , the very first word's of swills post say's , working as a train driver me being late can cause a delay.

Errrrrr, I think you'll find that was originally posted by "scotraildriver" in post 29 and the quoting has got messed up. Next.

robbeech · 12 Dec 2018

Bertie the bus said:
Right. So somebody who needs to be at work at 09:30 at a shop 5 minutes from Waverley should in fact aim to get to Waverley at 08:44 because the trains don’t run on time. Of course.

No. They should aim to get to work at 0930. Their contract is between them and their employer and it is unlikely it mentions trains buses car or foot travel.

sprunt · 12 Dec 2018

"The train: don't rely on us if you've got an appointment you need to keep!"

Hardly a winning advertising slogan, is it?

NorthernSpirit · 12 Dec 2018

dk1 said:
Who the hell would want to work for this dictator in the first place?

noddingdonkey said:
Somebody who expects his staff to be on time is a dictator?

Perhaps John McKee, the gadgy who owns Hanover Healthfoods (goes to show what so called health foods do to you) could simply run the place instead and allow the member of staff some flexibility.

I have two jobs, one of them I'm usually a minute or two late but I do clock out three minutes later to make up for the time lost and my manager is OK with it simlply because of the traffic and even though I have set off ten minutes early, I've always been a minute or two late.

Whereas in my other job the manager is a full on dictator similar to Nicola Sturgeon, do I enjoy the second job? No, but I simply do it for the extra cash.

Islineclear3_1 · 12 Dec 2018

This thread amazes me

You commute on public transport daily. You know the service can be unreliable...

Leave your house earlier...allow additional travel time - quite simple really...

cb a1 · 12 Dec 2018

underbank said:
I find it hilarious that there's so much emphasis on faster trains etc to get you "there" 10 minutes earlier, but then at the same time, you're told to get an earlier train in case it's late or cancelled so you don't miss your meeting etc. So just what is the point? Why not concentrate on making the service reliable instead of faster?

I agree. I'm pretty sure that any surveys done of passengers rates reliability higher than travel time.

The problem is that government investment (and it's pretty much always the taxpayer rather than the TOC or the customer who is paying for this) in the rail* industry values time much more than reliability ...

*this also applied to roads, buses, ferries, etc.

Bantamzen · 12 Dec 2018

robert7111a said:
This thread amazes me

You commute on public transport daily. You know the service can be unreliable...

Leave your house earlier...allow additional travel time - quite simple really...

So can road traffic, the weather and so on. If this particular employee has to get into work 45 minutes before opening to ensure a 09:30 opening, why not open a bit earlier and catch a bit more business? Unfortunately life isn't always predictable, and sometimes you have to adapt to the situation.

robbeech · 12 Dec 2018

NorthernSpirit said:
I have two jobs, one of them I'm usually a minute or two late but I do clock out three minutes later to make up for the time lost and my manager is OK with it simlply because of the traffic and even though I have set off ten minutes early, I've always been a minute or two late.

Have you thought about setting off 15 minutes earlier?

Scottish shop owner ‘won’t hire staff who rely on ScotRail’

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