Is there not a problem introducing electric trains because the current diagrams interwork Man-Blackpool trains with other services, and they cant change the timetable because of the embargo after the timetabling fiasco earlier this year? So it will be May 2019 then....
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Blackpool - Manchester Electrification
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Is there not a problem introducing electric trains because the current diagrams interwork Man-Blackpool trains with other services, and they cant change the timetable because of the embargo after the timetabling fiasco earlier this year? So it will be May 2019 then....
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jonesy3001
Established Member
Supposed to be a 319 testing over the weekend but nothing on RTT yet.
AIUI, Timetable changes aren't 'banned'; just that significant changes require demonstration of general readiness to be accepted (e.g. train crew, etc.)
Depends how much work it is to split up the diagram; if it's just a case of introducing an extra unit cycle at Blackpool to split up the diragrams, that's fairly strightforward. If it's not possible to steadily start dribbling EMUs onto diagrams between now and May, that won't help with train crew training to be ready for a more significant recast.
LDECRexile
Established Member
Wrinkley has kindly sent a film of the Pendolino passing through Lostock station on the second night of testing.
I've added it to his album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157654034635234
and to the Combined Volume here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633
Thank you Wrinkley.
I've added it to his album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157654034635234
and to the Combined Volume here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633
Thank you Wrinkley.
PDG1949
Member
I suspect this may be it; Sat. 15th Dec- see bottom of page - 5Z10 ManVic reversing sidings to ManVic reversing sidings, starting 2020
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/SFD/2018/12/15/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt
Pathed as 75 mph Sprinter DMU , but there again doesn't really mean anything as the Pendos were pathed as Voyagers. Anyway the reversing siding is where the Manchester 319 usually seems to live when it's not active.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I'd have thought the TPE Scotland services could be diverted non-stop via Bolton without too much problem, if there are paths.
They don't currently stop on the Golborne route, so no change to passenger expectations.
Whether 350s need clearance for the route, or specific route-learning is required after electrification, I don't know.
Somebody will have to bite the bullet and send a service train that way, after all the hand-wringing about the delay, and prove to the public it really is "finished".
They don't currently stop on the Golborne route, so no change to passenger expectations.
Whether 350s need clearance for the route, or specific route-learning is required after electrification, I don't know.
Somebody will have to bite the bullet and send a service train that way, after all the hand-wringing about the delay, and prove to the public it really is "finished".
jonesy3001
Established Member
They'll probably wait till the testing is finished and the ORR do whatever they do.
Stopping at Bolton or not stopping, I would have thought that the 397s would have arrived before that is an issue.
Bertie the bus
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What would be the point? TPE’s Manchester Airport – Scotland services will be going back to the Bolton line but with a stop at Bolton if I recall correctly. Passengers have no interest in how they get from Manchester to Preston and don't care that much whether it is "finished" or not. They care about the benefits of the project they were promised.
There are self contained Northern diagrams which could go over to EMU operation as soon as final approval is given. The question is will they and my understanding is the answer is no.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa route was energised (from Larbert) on Nov 4, the first test train ran on Nov 28 and a partial public service began on Dec 9.
That's the yardstick to match (assuming ORR sign off promptly).
That's the yardstick to match (assuming ORR sign off promptly).
What is required for ORR to sign off?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
No doubt a clean set of test results will be needed, plus proof of compliance with all the required TSIs (eg structure clearances).
Probably also that the appropriate maintenance regime is in place, and that power supplies are adequate for the service level planned.
It would not be unusual for some non-critical work to be outstanding (eg lineside fencing).
Phase 1 was authorised without the autotransformer system being complete (for 1tph), but I suspect that it is required for the Bolton route from Day 1.
I imagine quite a few project Christmas bonuses are at stake...
SansHache
Member
This week's testing has all been in autotransformer mode fed from Willow Park via Ordsall. There were no issues with the Pendolino drawing in excess of 7MW when accelerating. This is the equivalent of 3 Class 319s accelerating simultaneously.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
So am I correct in assuming that is 7,000,000/25,000 = 280 amps of current if at 25kV but on AT in effect 50kV that would be 140 amps or is that too simplistic?
DJH1971
Established Member
I have a feeling they won't bother with the 350's as they are said to be going to LNWR.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
It will probably be another year before all the 397s are in service.
I shouldn't think TPE will want to keep 350s running via Golborne beyond the timetable change next May.
The May 2018 timetable was re-arranged slightly to accommodate the 350s via Wigan; it will probably need to be adjusted back again to run them via Bolton. As this will affect other services, I think it's a safe bet that TPE will run via Wigan until May 2019.
Gralister said:
The autotransformer arrangement relates to how the power supply operates between feeder stations. The voltage between the wires and the track remains (nominally) 25kV. That would give you 280A for 7MW (in practice slightly more, because the load isn't purely resistive, but that's getting complicated).
SansHache said:
It's worth emphasising that while fine at 2am with practically nothing else using the wires, there might be issues with the amount of load during the day and especially in the peaks.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Ahhrr OK- I think I am beginning to understand. So the unit/loco never sees 50K - but between feeder stations it is effectively 50K thus reducing voltage drops and I assume keeping "I squared R" losses down?
Elecman
Established Member
Yes in general
SansHache
Member
Yes that's correct, and there is an additional benefit as the lower current means the voltage induced in any parallel lineside cables is also much lower.
The Pendolino operates at unity power factor when drawing more than 500kW so can be considered a resistive load.
The voltage drop when drawing full power was less than 1kV even when accelerating at the remote end of the section and remained well above the nominal 25kV.
The power supply is more than adequate to support initial electric services until Heyrod comes on line. The designers have done a good job of optimising the capabilities of the existing feeders.
The depots that operate on the bolton line are: Blackpool, Wigan, Victoria, Picadilly and Buxton. All depots are trained 319s but only piccadilly do 323s and operate on this route.
All trains up to the May timetable are DMUs. There was no way they would take a chance on Network Rail having the job done on time.
It's not that straight forward to plonk an emu on a dmu diagram unless the dmu came off Allerton or Blackpool and ended up exclusively on Blackpool to man airports all day and returned there. To introduce emus would require STP traincrew diagrams which can only exist for 6 weeks due to trade union agreements. There was a deal done with ASLEF to extend this but I don't know if this was a one off arrangement, think they gave all the drivers a £1000 so they could STP for longer than 6 weeks.
You might not see many emus until May 19 on this route
jonesy3001
Established Member
That's if the 323s are staying to operate the Bolton line, I know it's an old chestnut but I don't think they're going to be hanging around before the may TT change.
TBSchenker
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And Barrow (ex-TPE) who don't sign 319s.
Lots of rumours about 323s but nothing concrete about whether they are staying or going. They are a superior unit to the 319 but it might depend whether northern want to train another load of drivers on 323s as only Piccadilly and lime street sign them at the moment. Leasing costs as well.
and only 3 cars....
Elecman
Established Member
Yes but doubled up as 6 cars will fit most if not all the necessary platforms thatv8 car 319s won’t, thus giving a good boost in capacity
Bertie the bus
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Great if they are intending to run 6 cars but not if they’re not. On the Manchester – Preston line Bolton, Horwich Parkway, Chorley and Buckshaw Parkway can presumably all fit a 6 car 323 as they have 6 car 185 services stopping. Leyland and the other stations which had temporary extensions for the Farnworth Tunnel work can’t so capacity could be increased on the semi-fasts but would be reduced on the stoppers.
why cant we get our act together and build adequate platforms? This mucking with train lengths, and SDO, to fit into inadequate platforms is a (*&^&^% disgrace.
59CosG95
Established Member
Easier said than done...
what? are they not all factory made kits now?
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