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Barry Scrapyard - Steam Locomotive Graveyard.

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Flying Phil

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Maybe some people said the same thing about 71000 Duke of Gloucester.
Apparently when the preservation group went to a meeting of the Association of Railway Preservation Societies to present their idea they were virtually laughed out....Who had the last laugh!
 
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EbbwJunction1

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I think that Roger Hardingham in his talk last week said that it was considered by many to be a waste of time, although he did also say that they were proved wrong in a big way.
 

Merthyr Imp

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Possibly one of the reasons it was considered preservation of 71000 was a waste of time was because both outside cylinders had been removed.

Here's my photo of it at Barry on 4th August 1968:

71000 at Barry 4.8.68.jpg
 

Cowley

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Possibly one of the reasons it was considered preservation of 71000 was a waste of time was because both outside cylinders had been removed.

Here's my photo of it at Barry on 4th August 1968:

View attachment 56666
Great photo Merthyr Imp.
I’m just about old enough to remember 71000 being rescued and people saying that it was a ‘No Hoper’...
There were certain locos in Barry back then that had a slightly mythical aura about them - Like the two Kings, the B1, DoG etc.
Fascinating times, and amazing that so many of them have been restored and have worked on the mainline.
 

markindurham

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One does have to wonder about what might have not happened, had the restorers of 71000 not done so? They were the first group to have new cylinders etc cast, thus paving the way for others to follow. Bear in mind that, as an example, 45562 Alberta was passed over for preservation in 1967 because her tyres were at scrapping size, but other than that she was in good condition. Obtaining and fitting new tyres was regarded as being beyond the capabilities of preservationists in 1967 - yet look where we are now
 

Flying Phil

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Great photo Merthyr Imp.
I’m just about old enough to remember 71000 being rescued and people saying that it was a ‘No Hoper’...
There were certain locos in Barry back then that had a slightly mythical aura about them - Like the two Kings, the B1, DoG etc.
Fascinating times, and amazing that so many of them have been restored and have worked on the mainline.

Well I am slightly older and I find the whole preservation scene a real triumph for all those involved......but of course we have been the fortunate generations not to have been "called up" and fight in a major European/World war......
 

martian boy

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Another thing that didn’t help the two diesels, was the end of N.C.B. steam locomotives in South Wales around that time.

I believe the Mountain Ash system ended steam around that time.

There was a list of N.C.B. locomotives, their status and location at the time in a report in Railway World. I believe there was a “rush” by the “Hundred yards of track, half a dozen brake vans brigade*” to secure some of these locomotives.

*There was a letter in Railway World or Steam Railway under this heading. IIRC, it warned about money being spent on possibly dead end projects, while other historic railway rolling stock was being ignored.
 

Bedpan

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Great photo Merthyr Imp.
I’m just about old enough to remember 71000 being rescued and people saying that it was a ‘No Hoper’...
There were certain locos in Barry back then that had a slightly mythical aura about them - Like the two Kings, the B1, DoG etc.
Fascinating times, and amazing that so many of them have been restored and have worked on the mainline.
Yes, excellent photo.
Apart from people thinking that the missing cylinders would make 71000 impossible to restore, when in use it suffered from poor steaming and heavy fuel consumption such that it was not popular with crews. Presumably this was why it was a lone member of its class. But as you say, and no doubt because it was a unique engine, it did have a mystical aura, and it was one I always wanted to see but never did. The thing about Barry though, and arguably for some one of the few the negative aspects about it, was that it contained mainly locos from the Southern and Western regions that were amongst the last to be withdrawn, like West Country/Battle of Britains and Merchant Navies, which in itself made others which did not fall in that category quite unique. Offthe top of my head I cant think of any ex Eastern Region engines other than 61306, but there were 28 Bullied pacifics. Similarly quite a few Standard Tanks, but every single one from the 80XXX series.
 

Cowley

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Yes, excellent photo.
Apart from people thinking that the missing cylinders would make 71000 impossible to restore, when in use it suffered from poor steaming and heavy fuel consumption such that it was not popular with crews. Presumably this was why it was a lone member of its class. But as you say, and no doubt because it was a unique engine, it did have a mystical aura, and it was one I always wanted to see but never did. The thing about Barry though, and arguably for some one of the few the negative aspects about it, was that it contained mainly locos from the Southern and Western regions that were amongst the last to be withdrawn, like West Country/Battle of Britains and Merchant Navies, which in itself made others which did not fall in that category quite unique. Offthe top of my head I cant think of any ex Eastern Region engines other than 61306, but there were 28 Bullied pacifics. Similarly quite a few Standard Tanks, but every single one from the 80XXX series.
Yes it did get filled with a lot of locos that had worked up to 1966/67 (and maybe 1968 also?)
The B1 (I think it was actually 61264) was definitely the only ex Eastern region loco, it had been in departmental use somewhere I seem to remember.
71000 had been withdrawn a bit earlier though (1962?). I know that it was earmarked for the National Railway Museum, but does anyone know where it was located between being withdrawn and arriving at Barry? I don’t know when it arrived at Barry, I’m assuming it didn’t go straight there though? Were the cylinders removed elsewhere?
 

Brush 4

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71000 was at Crewe Works for cylinder removal until 1967, when it was sent to Barry with 75014. Steam For Scrap has a photo of them at Newport where they were delivered by mistake! A local enthusiast who visited regularly noticed the label attached to the handrail said Woodhams. He told the staff and, they were saved from oblivion.
The photo on Page 1 of a Bulleid being cut up has the number 34063. This was scrapped at Birds of Bridgend in 1966 and, the background certainly isn't Barry, too rural.
 

Cowley

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71000 was at Crewe Works for cylinder removal until 1967, when it was sent to Barry with 75014. Steam For Scrap has a photo of them at Newport where they were delivered by mistake! A local enthusiast who visited regularly noticed the label attached to the handrail said Woodhams. He told the staff and, they were saved from oblivion.
The photo on Page 1 of a Bulleid being cut up has the number 34063. This was scrapped at Birds of Bridgend in 1966 and, the background certainly isn't Barry, too rural.
Thanks Brush.4, good information.
 

Cowley

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Why were the cylinders removed?
One was for display at the NRM. The other was removed to balance the weight of the locomotive while it was being towed.
I’m not actually sure if the cylinder was ever displayed?
 

Flying Phil

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I believe the first cylinder was removed to find out the best method of sectioning it so that when they took the other side off they knew exactly where to cut it and yes, it was then displayed at the Science museum. Not sure if is is still there though?
 

Cowley

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I believe the first cylinder was removed to find out the best method of sectioning it so that when they took the other side off they knew exactly where to cut it and yes, it was then displayed at the Science museum. Not sure if is is still there though?
Ah, a bit different from my version then. :lol:
 

EbbwJunction1

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This https://www.dukeofgloucester.co.uk/?section=locomotive&page=British+Caprotti+Valve+Gear is hopefully a link to the front page of the British Caprotti Valve Gear web site, which contains this statement:

"Kind permission has been given by The National Railway Museum for the exhibit shown right (original centre cylinder, cambox and reversing gear), which was exhibited at The Science Museum in Kensington until 1997, to be loaned to The West Somerset Railway Association. This will be exhibited at the Bishops Lydeard Visitor Centre, West Somerset Railway, from the beginning of the 2002 season."

It's not there now, though, as it's at the Crewe Heritage Centre. This is a link to the Duke of Gloucester Group's web site, which gives the history of the locomotive, even including the name of the former railwayman who spotted her at Cashmores and was instrumental in getting her sent to Barry:
https://www.theduke.uk.com/the-duke/history/
 
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markindurham

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I'm pretty sure that both the reasons for 71000's cylinders both being removed before the trip to South Wales have validity, tbh. An unbalanced locomotive, even one heading for scrap, wouldn't ride well, and could potentially derail.
 

CarltonA

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missing cylinders would make 71000 impossible to restore, when in use it suffered from poor steaming and heavy fuel consumption such that it was not popular with crews. Presumably this was why it was a lone member of its class. But as you say, and no doubt because it was a unique engine, it did have a mystical aura.

I thought the reason for 71000 being unique was due to it being intended as a one off replacement for the loco written off in the Harrow & Wealdstone disaster.
 

Flying Phil

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I thought the reason for 71000 being unique was due to it being intended as a one off replacement for the loco written off in the Harrow & Wealdstone disaster.
True, but as the Website says, it was to be the prototype for a new class of 8P pacifics, but the decision to dieselise/electrify in 1955 put paid to any more and also a more detailed attempt to eradicate those faults.
 

markindurham

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I thought the reason for 71000 being unique was due to it being intended as a one off replacement for the loco written off in the Harrow & Wealdstone disaster.
That's certainly why it was built - Riddles saw an opportunity to build it, the excuse, if you like, was to replace 46202, wrecked, as you say, at Harrow. Unfortunately the year after 71000 was built, the Modernisation Plan came out - and that was it, no more steam.
 

Bedpan

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If it was simply a case of needing an extra loco to replace 46202, presumably they would simply have built another Britannia.
 

Bedpan

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Brits were Class 7; 46202 was a Class 8.

Well I never knew that. I had always assumed that the power classification decreased as the 7XXXX numbers increased. Although obviously after deciding to number Britannia 70000, there was no opportunity to have a lower number for a subsequent class with a higher power classification. Also, I was interested to learn that the publication of the modernisation plan put paid to any further 71XXX series being built. As I had said in post 69, it was my understanding that 71000 was poor steaming and coal hungry, but against that I can't say that I am aware of any such difficulties being encountered from its use in the preservation era. Can anybody else comment on this, oe say whether any modifications were carried out during its restoration?
 

Cowley

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Well I never knew that. I had always assumed that the power classification decreased as the 7XXXX numbers increased. Although obviously after deciding to number Britannia 70000, there was no opportunity to have a lower number for a subsequent class with a higher power classification. Also, I was interested to learn that the publication of the modernisation plan put paid to any further 71XXX series being built. As I had said in post 69, it was my understanding that 71000 was poor steaming and coal hungry, but against that I can't say that I am aware of any such difficulties being encountered from its use in the preservation era. Can anybody else comment on this, oe say whether any modifications were carried out during its restoration?
Yes some modifications were done to the drafting during its restoration which improved it quite dramatically.
This included a larger bore chimney and some alterations to the firebox area (the grate?).
 

markindurham

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Well I never knew that. I had always assumed that the power classification decreased as the 7XXXX numbers increased. Although obviously after deciding to number Britannia 70000, there was no opportunity to have a lower number for a subsequent class with a higher power classification. Also, I was interested to learn that the publication of the modernisation plan put paid to any further 71XXX series being built. As I had said in post 69, it was my understanding that 71000 was poor steaming and coal hungry, but against that I can't say that I am aware of any such difficulties being encountered from its use in the preservation era. Can anybody else comment on this, oe say whether any modifications were carried out during its restoration?
Numbers didn't indicate power. Basically, after nationalisation this was the case :-

Ex GW locomotives 1 - 9999
Diesels 10000 - 19999
Electrics 20000 - 29999
Ex SR 30000 - 39999
ex LMS 40000 - 59999
ex LNER - 60000 - 69999
BR and ex WD - 70000 and up

As for the modifications to the Duke during restoration, a Kylchap arrangement was designed and built - this was what was originally conceived, I think, but would have involved paying royalties, so a plain double blastpipe was used when first built. The other big one was the ashpan - a new one, the story goes, was built to the drawings provided, but was actually then compared to the remains of the original. It was then realised that the damping/air slots on the original had been cut too small, thus starving the fire of air. No wonder she was a poor steamer...

Another modification, done at the last overhaul, I think, was to fit slightly different cams, which also improved performance slightly, but not to the same extent as the blastpipe and ashpan changes.
 

Flying Phil

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The modifications to the Duke in preservation were, as Cowley said, a larger bore to the double chimney, replacement of the Swindon designed double plain blast pipe, with a double Kylchap blast pipe and ashpan doors to the correct size (larger than those originally made). They then had to fit larger injectors, as it was then able to produce steam so much better! There have also been changes to the exhaust cam profile.
 

Cowley

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The modifications to the Duke in preservation were, as Cowley said, a larger bore to the double chimney, replacement of the Swindon designed double plain blast pipe, with a double Kylchap blast pipe and ashpan doors to the correct size (larger than those originally made). They then had to fit larger injectors, as it was then able to produce steam so much better! There have also been changes to the exhaust cam profile.
From what I remember back in the 1990s when they did “Blue Riband” trials up Grayrigg, Shap and Ais Gill, 71000 put on an amazing performance compared to what it was capable of in BR service, it went over the top of Shap at over 50 mph and this was despite all the locomotives not exceeding 60 mph.
 

Flying Phil

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The Duke certainly was transformed after restoration. I was told that it would pull trains along the GCR on 3% cut-off!
 

Bedpan

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Numbers didn't indicate power.
As we are now in the middle of the pantomime season my response is "OH YES THEY DID!" As my post said, I was referring to the 7XXXX series' (passenger/Mixed Traffic tender locos') power decreasing as the numbers increased and leaving out 71000, these were:-
70XXX (Britannias) 7P6F
72XXX (Clans) 6P5F
73XXX 5MT
75XXX 4MT (4-6-0)
76XXX 4MT (2-6-0)
77XXX 3MT
78XXX 2MT

Similarly the 8XXXX series (tank engines was:-
80XXX 4MT
82XXX 3MT
84XXX 2MT

Thanks to Markindurham, Flying Phil and Cowley for the information regarding post withdrawal modifications and the effect that they had on the operation of the loco. Most interesting.
 
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