On Train WiFi

MotorcycleAlan · 17 Dec 2018

You could ask whether it is right that all passengers are paying for wi-fi through their fares including those that never use it or, shock horror, might not have a device to do so. The obsession with everything being "free" is a misuse of the word, as everything has to be paid for, the question being by whom?

RailUK Forums

1e10 · 17 Dec 2018

apk55 said:
Metrolink Trams in Manchester have free WIFI. They also use the network as well for communicating with the trams or drivers so it must be reliable. At regular intervals on the overhead wire supports (typically every fourth) you can see a transmitter presumably for WIFI.

Metrolink tram Wi-Fi relies on Vodafone 4G for connectivity.

Mag_seven · 17 Dec 2018

I was on an EMT HST today - the wi-fi was awful as it kept dropping out.

jon0844 · 17 Dec 2018

Class 403 said:
But Geographical and Population coverage are two completely different things as @jon0844 can explain, one does not equal the other which is why EE is working towards 95% geographical coverage by 2020 even though they have 99% population coverage.

As to XC offering WiFi, its long overdue.

Yes, geographical coverage is more important than population when it comes to railway coverage. Railway lines pass through unpopulated areas so that extra coverage makes all the difference.

No 4G for mobile data, no Wi-Fi data either. No operator uses satellite these days.

As I hoped, GTR uses both EE and Vodafone. I don't know about other TOCs but that is the best combination in my opinion.

sefton · 17 Dec 2018

MotorcycleAlan said:
You could ask whether it is right that all passengers are paying for wi-fi through their fares including those that never use it or, shock horror, might not have a device to do so. The obsession with everything being "free" is a misuse of the word, as everything has to be paid for, the question being by whom?

But where do you stop.

I don't use printed timetables, so perhaps charging £1 each for them.

I don't use the information desk, so perhaps charging £5 per enquiry.

I know what time the trains are, so perhaps 50p if you want to look at the departure board.

Toilets on the trains - I am happy to wait, so 50p a use? Seats, well if I have to stand as the train is always full perhaps charging 10p a mile for those who want to sit down. etc. etc.

The cost of providing Wifi is buttons in the scheme of things and provides a service to customers; yes I know 'customer service' and 'railways' is a bit of a new concept.

MotorcycleAlan · 17 Dec 2018

There is debate, and there is patronising, a thin line between the two....

jon0844 · 17 Dec 2018

I have no idea how much the Wi-Fi technology costs. It's mostly one supplier these days, and I assume there's a fixed cost. New trains will be wired up ready, so it's just the cost of the SIM cards and whatever subscription has been negotiated. But we know everything on the railway costs a lot of money, so don't expect it to be anything like buying a Huawei LTE router for £300 on Amazon! I'd say four figures, plus the need for the antennas, cabling, a server....

Clearly each train doesn't have a regular SIM with a set data allowance. I expect the data allowance is unlimited, but there WILL still be a cost and I can imagine it being a fair bit when you add it all up. Obviously loads less than consumer tariffs (where you may pay around 50p-£1 per GB) but when added up...

All in all, Wi-Fi provision will be a not insignificant cost and one we ALL pay for whether we use it or not. And once made free, usage will increase that lowers the performance and forces more investment (more concurrent 4G connections) which then makes it even more costly.

To be honest, paying for the service could make for a much better experience overall.

Llanigraham · 17 Dec 2018

Mikey C said:
But then the bits of the country which have poor mobile coverage are presumably the areas where hardly anyone lives, and few people visit by train anyway.

Great!!
So people who do live in rural areas don't need good mobile coverage?

Aictos · 17 Dec 2018

Mikey C said:
But then the bits of the country which have poor mobile coverage are presumably the areas where hardly anyone lives, and few people visit by train anyway.

I disagree strongly as the areas that have poor mobile coverage are areas that do need it as it seems that EE also seems to believe

We’re the first UK network to show you our 4G geographic coverage, and our ambition is to cover 95% of the UK with superfast 4G by 2020. We’re currently at 90%.

We increased our 4G geographical coverage by over 10% in 2017. Doesn’t sound much, right? However, in geographic coverage terms, that’s the equivalent to an area larger than Wales. We think that’s pretty cool. After all, it’s often the remotest places where you need a good 4G signal the most.

More info here

jon0844 said:
Yes, geographical coverage is more important than population when it comes to railway coverage. Railway lines pass through unpopulated areas so that extra coverage makes all the difference.

No 4G for mobile data, no Wi-Fi data either. No operator uses satellite these days.

As I hoped, GTR uses both EE and Vodafone. I don't know about other TOCs but that is the best combination in my opinion.

Indeed, onboard wifi depends on mobile data so if you can't get a mobile phone signal then you're not going to get onboard wifi.

No idea what LNWR uses but I kept a eye on the Birmingham to Stansted route with XC and the majority of the line managed to get a signal with EE with the odd blackspot and that's checking all 4 mobile operators!

However you're right that geographical coverage is more important than population when it comes to railway coverage but also for these in rural areas where EE is actually doing a lot to help improve coverage.

jon0844 · 17 Dec 2018

The advantage of a train Wi-Fi service is that there can be multiple antennas in a more advantageous position than your mobile phone inside a metal cage. So the Icomera system will get a better signal (and quality) than you will.

But you aren't sharing your connection with hundreds of people.

Obviously the 4G connection itself is being shared, but the way EE shares the bandwidth between its users and the train splits that one connection with its users will be different. Hence why trains have more than one SIM, and then have to throttle users and block certain services for obvious reasons.

Your own 4G connection won't be restricted. You can stream Netflix, screen share, sync files to Google Drive etc.

Ken H · 17 Dec 2018

jon0844 said:
The advantage of a train Wi-Fi service is that there can be multiple antennas in a more advantageous position than your mobile phone inside a metal cage. So the Icomera system will get a better signal (and quality) than you will.

But you aren't sharing your connection with hundreds of people.

Obviously the 4G connection itself is being shared, but the way EE shares the bandwidth between its users and the train splits that one connection with its users will be different. Hence why trains have more than one SIM, and then have to throttle users and block certain services for obvious reasons.

Your own 4G connection won't be restricted. You can stream Netflix, screen share, sync files to Google Drive etc.

... then the train goes into a tunnel....or a cutting...

rjchapma · 17 Dec 2018

freddie1729 said:
LNER tweeted today that standard class WiFi is now free. But that might be temporary because of the O2 disruption. Their website isn't updated.

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1070688078606553089

LNER Wifi is free if you book with LNER (Std Class). It's free with no caveats in 1st

sefton · 17 Dec 2018

MotorcycleAlan said:
There is debate, and there is patronising, a thin line between the two....

I thought I had used quite a thick brush...

But seriously, trains are there to provide a service to their customers. If that service can be improved by supplying free WiFi which will have cost buttons in comparison to everything else, then they would be crazy not to.

sefton · 17 Dec 2018

rjchapma said:
LNER Wifi is free if you book with LNER (Std Class).

The trouble is LNER WiFi is worth about the same as they charge.

jon0844 · 18 Dec 2018

Ken H said:
... then the train goes into a tunnel....or a cutting...

And? Vodafone and EE has provided coverage for many cuttings and tunnels (the latter dependent on length) by careful positioning of sites. In a very similar way to how Network Rail provides GSM-R for the same locations.

Even if you lose data momentarily, the train is likely to reconnect to a cell much quicker than your phone inside.

I still prefer to use my phone but I know the onboard system is set up far better for some quite testing conditions.

KingJ · 18 Dec 2018

Ken H said:
... then the train goes into a tunnel....or a cutting...

The roof-mounted antennas in this scenario definitely helps. When you're outside the train, high up and with large, high-gain antennas (as opposed to what they need to fit in a phone) you can get quite a significant improvement compared to a phone inside the carriage. Although it's not going to result in portal to portal coverage when going through a tunnel, it certainly does help improve the reach somewhat in to the tunnel. The proper solution is to install leaky feeders or a distributed antenna system inside the tunnels but that's not going to be particularly easy (easy from a technical standpoint and is done in many non-rail tunnels, not so much from a 'getting access to NR infrastructure' perspective).

The operators are definitely trying to improve mobile coverage of the tracks, it represents a huge amount of data usage and serving them from far-away macro towers is inefficient and degrades the performance for other users within the coverage area. However, it would seem the main challenge is the local councils - i've seen far too many planning applications for sites which would significantly improve railway coverage (i.e. those which are located adjacent to the railway and have their panels aligned along the railway) rejected by the councils. Bromley in particular is notorious for this.

I personally have a phone with a high-category (speed) LTE modem in it, and a large data allowance. However, i'll still often connect to the WiFi as even if it has slower peak speeds, it provides a more reliable service in cuttings and rural areas.

HH · 18 Dec 2018

MotorcycleAlan said:
You could ask whether it is right that all passengers are paying for wi-fi through their fares including those that never use it or, shock horror, might not have a device to do so. The obsession with everything being "free" is a misuse of the word, as everything has to be paid for, the question being by whom?

The taxpayer is paying for it in most cases.

Skie · 18 Dec 2018

Ken H said:
... then the train goes into a tunnel....or a cutting...

Merseyrail will be providing on-board wifi even in tunnels (which it has a fair few of) on the new class 777 trains.

Aictos · 18 Dec 2018

Skie said:
Merseyrail will be providing on-board wifi even in tunnels (which it has a fair few of) on the new class 777 trains.

Germany has done this for years although not wifi as such but rather allows you to use your own mobile data with a strong signal all the way even deep underground so it's good that the UK is slowly waking up to providing it too.

So travel on the U Bahn in Berlin and Hamburg to name just two and you have internet access continuous.

Carlisle · 18 Dec 2018

Class 403 said:
But Geographical and Population coverage are two completely different things as @jon0844 can explain, one does not equal the other which is why EE is working towards 95% geographical coverage by 2020 even though they have 99% population coverage.

Ok understood, however as the poster was referring to WiFi ( or lack of) at Southampton station I didn’t think the debate about very rural locations was relevant.

HowardGWR · 19 Dec 2018

Carlisle said:
Ok understood, however as the poster was referring to WiFi ( or lack of) at Southampton station I didn’t think the debate about very rural locations was relevant.

Indeed I was, and my point was that I was trying to make decisions about what to do in a period of major disruption. I could follow what was on RTT when on the train from Weymouth (SWR wifi is very good) but had to make a decision on the platform at Southampton and the latest news of where the train that would form my onward trip to Gatwick was and how late, was no longer available*. I don't have a smart phone so my tablet was now useless. On GWR I can get off an SWR train at Exeter St Davids and continue using the GWR station wifi and then either a GWR train wifi or (now, hooray!) the XC wifi.

*Of course station staff / PIS screens usually know less than RTT, sad to have to write.

al78 · 19 Dec 2018

londonboi198o5 said:
How did we cope all these years ago without mobile phones, WIFI and the Internet I wonder.

People didn't have line managers that demanded they were online and available to get work done on the move, all the time, and at the drop of a hat.

Aictos · 19 Dec 2018

HowardGWR said:
Indeed I was, and my point was that I was trying to make decisions about what to do in a period of major disruption. I could follow what was on RTT when on the train from Weymouth (SWR wifi is very good) but had to make a decision on the platform at Southampton and the latest news of where the train that would form my onward trip to Gatwick was and how late, was no longer available*. I don't have a smart phone so my tablet was now useless. On GWR I can get off an SWR train at Exeter St Davids and continue using the GWR station wifi and then either a GWR train wifi or (now, hooray!) the XC wifi.

*Of course station staff / PIS screens usually know less than RTT, sad to have to write.

But that's a issue that SWR needs to deal with as Southampton Central is a a busy station so wifi should be provided as it ought to be at other such stations such as Portsmouth Harbour, Winchester, Bournemouth, Guildford, Salisbury, Basingstoke etc especially if it's offered onboard then it should also be offered at their stations too.

Llanigraham · 19 Dec 2018

Class 403 said:
But that's a issue that SWR needs to deal with as Southampton Central is a a busy station so wifi should be provided as it ought to be at other such stations such as Portsmouth Harbour, Winchester, Bournemouth, Guildford, Salisbury, Basingstoke etc especially if it's offered onboard then it should also be offered at their stations too.

Simple question, that no-one seems to have answered yet, but WHY should it be provided?
Perhaps you could give some practical and reasonable reasons for it?

sefton · 20 Dec 2018

Llanigraham said:
Simple question, that no-one seems to have answered yet, but WHY should it be provided?
Perhaps you could give some practical and reasonable reasons for it?

Good customer service - I know that is anathema to many.

palmersears · 20 Dec 2018

pdq said:
I used TPE wifi for the first time today, as O2 was offline. I was surprised to find I couldn't access this forum as they use OpenDNS with a rule to block all forums and discussion boards. Seems to me like an odd choice of content to block.

robbeech said:
I also used TPE Wi-fi for the first time on that day. I too noticed the block of the forum.

I enquired about this with TPE via Twitter and was told it was to block 'undesirable and inappropriate content'. They also blocked me from using RTT, and it was so unreliable for anything else that I just gave up.

jon0844 · 20 Dec 2018

Some companies will review sites to add to a whitelist if told about them, although I'd sooner just use a VPN.

Aictos · 20 Dec 2018

Llanigraham said:
Simple question, that no-one seems to have answered yet, but WHY should it be provided?
Perhaps you could give some practical and reasonable reasons for it?

1. From a business viewpoint, it allows employees to be far more proactive then they would have been by allowing them to conduct their business which otherwise wouldn't happen.

2. By offering such basic frills, it encourages repeat custom.

3. Customers do appreciate having easy access to wifi which facilitates their easy access to train information available via Apps and via Social Media which reduces calls to Customer Service for least one TOC.

I think they are more then good enough reasons.

jon0844 · 20 Dec 2018

But with many services blocked, business users may not be able to do everything they want/need, although VPNs can often address that. Otherwise you have no choice but to use your own personal hotspot.

Some train Wi-Fi services are very restricted, while at stations there's a lot less need to throttle services if there's a decent connection available.

londonmidland · 20 Dec 2018

Don’t know if this has been posted already but Cross County now offer free WiFi on their services on every train.

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