Huge variation in off-peak priv single prices.

bionic · 19 Dec 2018

Looking at priv fares (on brfares.com) between Euston and stations on the WCML there seems to be a huge discrepancy in price between two tickets that appear to have the same validity.

For example:

SVS
Euston to Preston off peak single, route: any permitted, restrictions 9I, price £22.90

And...

SVH
Euston to Preston off peak single, route: any permitted, restrictions 9I, price £11.55

The only difference I can see is the SVH one says you have to travel with at least one of the following TOCs - WMT, VT, XC - which presumably you would anyway! The SVS one doesn't specify a TOC. Both are fares set by VTWC. I can only assume the more expensive fare is for those wishing to use a very convoluted, time-consuming and indirect route avoiding all the obvious operators!

Can someone please tell me the difference between these ticket types and why the price is so different. Thanks.

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sonic2009 · 19 Dec 2018

SVH are usually sold when combined with an advance ticket.

So if someone bought an advance ticket for outward journey, but couldn't specify return time, that's when the SVH are generally sold. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

mmh · 19 Dec 2018

sonic2009 said:
SVH are usually sold when combined with an advance ticket.

So if someone bought an advance ticket for outward journey, but couldn't specify return time, that's when the SVH are generally sold. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

That's exactly what they're for. An SVH should only be sold as one leg of a return journey.

CyrusWuff · 19 Dec 2018

mmh said:
That's exactly what they're for. An SVH should only be sold as one leg of a return journey.

Though SVH tickets are also only supposed to be sold online...thus you wouldn't be able to get one with a PRIV discount anyway.

bionic · 20 Dec 2018

Thanks all
So basically just ignore the SVH fare!

ForTheLoveOf · 20 Dec 2018

bionic said:
Thanks all
So basically just ignore the SVH fare!

Yes - I don't think there is any way of purchasing it with a Priv discount, as it has to be purchased online where Priv is not an option for the majority of TOCs (I think only Caledonian Sleeper offer it, for tickets for their own services).

bionic · 20 Dec 2018

No probs, thanks again. I must admit I find the many fares on offer confusing. I've occasionally found it cheaper to buy public advance tickets rather than privs anyway!

greyman42 · 20 Dec 2018

bionic said:
No probs, thanks again. I must admit I find the many fares on offer confusing. I've occasionally found it cheaper to buy public advance tickets rather than privs anyway!

How much cheaper? Could you give an example. Is it worth it to be tied to a particular train?

bionic · 21 Dec 2018

Its not significantly cheaper but often advance tickets to Glasgow and Edinburgh from stations in England are a few quid cheaper than privs if you get them early. The most ive saved on a return journey is about £7. If I'm travelling with non railway staff then it doesn't bother me to be tied to a particular train as they will be tied to one anyway.

philthetube · 21 Dec 2018

Can be worth looking if travelling peak time but in my experience cannot get close to off peak returns.

bionic · 21 Dec 2018

Travelling to Glasgow on Saturday mornings from much of the WCML, returning the same day, (from the midlands up) you'll find two advance singles are often cheaper than an off peak priv return if you get them early enough. Maybe it's a special offer for Old Firm fans?

philthetube · 22 Dec 2018

bionic said:
Travelling to Glasgow on Saturday mornings from much of the WCML, returning the same day, (from the midlands up) you'll find two advance singles are often cheaper than an off peak priv return if you get them early enough. Maybe it's a special offer for Old Firm fans?

Just been looking, currently cannot find any advances for less than £30 singles, for any time.,

am a bit confused by Trainlne offering off peak return for £142.50, network rail saying cheapest return £147 but either way that ends up at approx £36 return.

It used to be very different before priv holders were allowed to buy off peak tickets.

bionic · 22 Dec 2018

philthetube said:
Just been looking, currently cannot find any advances for less than £30 singles, for any time.,

am a bit confused by Trainlne offering off peak return for £142.50, network rail saying cheapest return £147 but either way that ends up at approx £36 return.

It used to be very different before priv holders were allowed to buy off peak tickets.

Its a tenner single each way from much of the NW WCML on Saturday mornings in February returning on the 1800 or 1840.

reb0118 · 23 Dec 2018

bionic said:
Its a tenner single each way from much of the NW WCML on Saturday mornings in February returning on the 1800 or 1840.

You can get to Preston & thereabouts for about a tenner return from Edinburgh on a priv.

bionic · 23 Dec 2018

reb0118 said:
You can get to Preston & thereabouts for about a tenner return from Edinburgh on a priv.

Yes, so you can! Cheap day return... according to brfares you can get a Priv CDR from Preston to Glasgow but you can't get a CDR from Warrington or Crewe. The cheapest off peak priv tickets available here being standard off peak returns for over twenty quid... thus making the advance purchases cheaper.

So for example: (I'll use Crewe as it appears to represent the biggest price difference)

Crewe to Glasgow priv off peak return on a Saturday = £27.20
Two advance singles @£10.50 = £21.00
Thus a saving of £6.20 on the cheapest return priv fare, bearing in mind the CDR ticket does not appear to be available from Crewe.

In fact the cheapest way to do it from Crewe then would surely be "split tickets"? Buy a priv SVR return to Preston and a priv CDR return from Preston to Glasgow, for a total of around £17?

Am I missing something here or is that the case?

It's very confusing.

Edit: in fact if you get the virgin trains only priv CDR from Preston it's £6.90! Why then is it so much more expensive a few stops down the line?

30907 · 23 Dec 2018

bionic said:
Edit: in fact if you get the virgin trains only priv CDR from Preston it's £6.90! Why then is it so much more expensive a few stops down the line?

VT think there's a market for spontaneous days out, there's competition from TPE, and empty seats to fill on many trains. All apply to Preston and North.
In terms of spontaneity, I reckon two hours or so is round about the limit for most people unless the destination is a huge draw.

bionic · 23 Dec 2018

30907 said:
VT think there's a market for spontaneous days out, there's competition from TPE, and empty seats to fill on many trains. All apply to Preston and North.
In terms of spontaneity, I reckon two hours or so is round about the limit for most people unless the destination is a huge draw.

It's confusing the hell out of me! A priv return from Wigan, ten minutes down the road is £14 more than it is from Preston if you wanted to use exactly the same trains.

Going back to the Crewe to Glasgow day return prices for a Saturday, let me see if I've got this right...

Priv SVR return = £27.20
2×£10.50 adv singles (public fare) = £21.00
1×SVR return Crewe to Preston £6.85 + 1×CDR return (Virgin only) Preston to Glasgow £6.90 = £13.75 and you wouldn't have to get off the train.

So "split" ticketing seems to be save a fortune. Even for priv holders.

yorkie · 23 Dec 2018

bionic said:
So "split" ticketing seems to be save a fortune.

It does save a fortune for some journeys, and a modest amount for many more, hence why there are websites that will sell a combination of tickets for one journey, at a lower price than websites which don't.

There are of course some journeys where there is no saving.

bionic said:
Even for priv holders.

As it saves money on walk-up fares, and PRIV holders now get discounts on almost all walk-up fares, you can indeed get a cheaper price for your journey.

The problem is that the rail industry does not permit websites to sell PRIV tickets, ticket offices are not allowed to pro-actively suggest such tickets, and therefore the rail industry chooses to exclude PRIV holders from being able to easily obtain such ticket.

You are denied the ability to search for a journey, make one payment, obtain one itinerary, and get all your tickets within seconds. Instead you have to do the research and take a list of tickets to a ticket office.

tom73 · 23 Dec 2018

Can anybody recall a time when the public fare Euston to Preston would have been around £22.90 (or £22.18/- if before 1971)

Haywain · 23 Dec 2018

tom73 said:
Can anybody recall a time when the public fare Euston to Preston would have been around £22.90 (or £22.18/- if before 1971)

There will have been such a time, but what on earth does it add to this discussion?

reb0118 · 23 Dec 2018

There is nothing to stop you using a split ticketing website (select walk up fares only), note the results, and then purchase the equivalent priv discounted tickets from your local booking office (or commission earning on train colleague - hint,hint). If that website has helped to save you money then promote it to any "public rate fare" passengers who you encounter who have had issues with the Trainline for example.

Also there are other benefits to priv walkups as opposed to public rate advances - not least the additional routeings allowed, esp. north of Preston, e.g. via Cumbrian Coast.

If you work for ScotRail and have access to yammer join my Domestic Travel group for more advice.

30907 · 23 Dec 2018

bionic said:
It's confusing the hell out of me! A priv return from Wigan, ten minutes down the road is £14 more than it is from Preston if you wanted to use exactly the same trains.

But that's because one is valid one day and the other is valid for a month. Like for like the difference is £6 (public).

bionic · 23 Dec 2018

30907 said:
But that's because one is valid one day and the other is valid for a month. Like for like the difference is £6 (public).

Is it possible to buy a CDR ticket to Glasgow from Wigan, Warrington or Crewe? They don't show up on brfares.

ForTheLoveOf · 23 Dec 2018

bionic said:
Is it possible to buy a CDR ticket to Glasgow from Wigan, Warrington or Crewe? They don't show up on brfares.

No. Generally BR Fares will list a wider range of fares than can actually be bought, if anything (e.g. as you have discovered with "SVH" Priv-discounted fares). The only kinds of fares that aren't on BR Fares would be promotional fares, really (and even those are sometimes on it). It now receives daily updates so it is usually very accurate.

There is no obligation upon any TOC to offer a CDR, as there is no such thing as a regulated CDR. They are all voluntary and market based. I have to say, the market for a CDR from somewhere like Crewe to Glasgow must be quite small... it's a three hour journey with relatively poor first and last trains in either direction, so hardly any wonder that most people don't consider it the kind of journey you would do a day trip on!

If you want to return the same day on a longer journey, often it is necessary to split tickets to be able to obtain inevitably better priced day returns.

Huge variation in off-peak priv single prices.

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