BBC reporting on Northern Rail's Preston to Ormskirk line

Ken H · 22 Dec 2018

bionic said:
...

Let's be honest, it looks a lot better for the DFT if it's perceived to be a TOC forcing through DOO and provoking staff to strike rather than the DFT itself.

This is why government like arms reaching stuff with quangos etc
They can implement silly policies and then blame someone else

Highways agency
rail industry
student loans
etc....

RailUK Forums

route101 · 22 Dec 2018

Greenback said:
I saw the report and was intrigued by the Blackpool South references. The reporting of these kinds of issues are not fantastic across the media in general, but as has been said it doesn't deflect from the fact that Northern are just not good enough at what they are supposed to be doing.

DW eNGLISH NEWS , had a report on the english scottish border and the reporter boarded a northern 158 to Lockerbie !

Bletchleyite · 22 Dec 2018

GoneSouth said:
Now this maybe a numpty questions but if the train terminates at Preston, has only a short dwell, resarts as a Preston-Blackpool South service, the train crew set the destination board to Blackpool South knowing that is where the train will end up, then why isn't it just published as an Ormskirk to Blackpool South service? Am I missing something?

It was allegedly to stop confusion due to there being a "star" of services, but it actually causes more confusion in my view.

Bletchleyite · 22 Dec 2018

jcollins said:
The way it is currently does allow them to do a unit swap at Preston without having a part cancellation or having to compensate passengers through Delay Repay (due to it not being an official connection.)

You can swap the unit without a cancellation.

adrock1976 · 22 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
To avoid problems with the journey planners not showing it as a connection they should timetable it as a through service in my view. I know a unidirectional service is a bit confusing but better than thinking you have to wait at Preston for an hour.

The only significant errors I noted in the report were describing Preston and Ormskirk as "large towns". Ormskirk is a relatively small town, while Preston is a city.

That said, I was surprised it made national news for what was basically a "North West Tonight" style report. I guess the OPSTA guy carries heavy influence, as was said here before!

Since when has Preston been a city?

During geography lessons in my primary school days (1981 - 1989) the North West cities were Liverpool, Salford, Manchester, Lancaster, and Carlisle.

Baxenden Bank · 22 Dec 2018

adrock1976 said:
Since when has Preston been a city?

During geography lessons in my primary school days (1981 - 1989) the North West cities were Liverpool, Salford, Manchester, Lancaster, and Carlisle.

Wikipedia:

The City of Preston is a city and non-metropolitan district in Lancashire, England. On the north bank of the River Ribble, it was granted city status in 2002, becoming England's 50th city in the 50th year of Queen Elizabeth II's reign. The City of Preston district has a population of, and lies at the centre of the Central Lancashire sub-region, with a population of 335,000

pemma · 22 Dec 2018

adrock1976 said:
During geography lessons in my primary school days (1981 - 1989) the North West cities were Liverpool, Salford, Manchester, Lancaster, and Carlisle.

That's a long time ago now. Presumably you also learnt where East Germany, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia were during your Geography lessons and that Hong Kong is a British territory.

PR1Berske · 22 Dec 2018

adrock1976 said:
Since when has Preston been a city?

During geography lessons in my primary school days (1981 - 1989) the North West cities were Liverpool, Salford, Manchester, Lancaster, and Carlisle.

We have been a city for years, things do move on from the 1980s

On the subject of the Ormskirk line in particular, I used to use it every weekend and sometimes it would be with one-carriage, and one rather damp smelling carriage at that. The villages along that part of West Lancashire really do rely on public transport, buses are incredibly rare and hardly guaranteed to last from one period to another.

Ken H · 22 Dec 2018

PR1Berske said:
We have been a city for years, things do move on from the 1980s

On the subject of the Ormskirk line in particular, I used to use it every weekend and sometimes it would be with one-carriage, and one rather damp smelling carriage at that. The villages along that part of West Lancashire really do rely on public transport, buses are incredibly rare and hardly guaranteed to last from one period to another.

i have never been on that line. do many get off the electrics and get on the DMU to preston?

PR1Berske · 22 Dec 2018

Ken H said:
i have never been on that line. do many get off the electrics and get on the DMU to preston?

From memory there's a lot less churn between the two than you'd expect, though it has been a few years since I was last at Ormskirk.

Ianno87 · 22 Dec 2018

PR1Berske said:
From memory there's a lot less churn between the two than you'd expect, though it has been a few years since I was last at Ormskirk.

My observation earlier in the year, mid-afternoon was only a handful of people changing. Most people were starting/ebding journey at Ormskirk.

geoffk · 22 Dec 2018

Bletchleyite said:
You can swap the unit without a cancellation.

The problem is that journey planners do not recognise thethrough service as a "connection" and give you a 63 or whatever minutes wait in Preston. The pattern is Ormskirk to Blackpool South, Blackpool South to Colne and Colne to Ormskirk.

philthetube · 22 Dec 2018

For Preston Ormskirk read;

PReston Ormskirk, Preston Colne and Preston Blackpool South,

all more or less equally affected.

xotGD · 22 Dec 2018

I noticed that the TV report featured a Pacer from hell with Merseyrail seating.

Busaholic · 22 Dec 2018

Ken H said:
werent Connex SE seriously rubbish, bit they never got booted.

In fact has any franchise ever been ended because of poor performance?

Actually, they were stripped of their franchise in 2003, after which time the lines were in public ownership for a period.

Esker-pades · 22 Dec 2018

Isn't the line between Retford and Barnetby the line that has had the greatest percentage reduction in service since the May timetable change? That or Stockport to Stalybridge.

Ianigsy · 22 Dec 2018

I was just thinking that Brigg can't have had a service of any description for months now.

Esker-pades · 22 Dec 2018

Ianigsy said:
I was just thinking that Brigg can't have had a service of any description for months now.

Exactly. Those Saturday-only parliamentaryservices haven't existed since August.

SC43090 · 22 Dec 2018

Read into this as you like.... But over the last few Saturdays there as been 2 round trips between Sheffield -- Cleethorpes -- Sheffield ECS services operated by Northern via Brigg..... I assume it must be to do with keeping up driver knowledge on the route....

SC 43090

323235 · 23 Dec 2018

The Colne , Ormskirk , Blackpool South circuit is rediculous at the moment - the timetabled layovers are between 3-5 minutes with 5 units on rotation.

Services often get delayed over 5 minutes easily.

Does anyone know when more resources will be made available?

Ormskirk should never have gone hourly until they had enough units for a sensible service.

SC43090 · 23 Dec 2018

323235 said:
The Colne , Ormskirk , Blackpool South circuit is rediculous at the moment - the timetabled layovers are between 3-5 minutes with 5 units on rotation.

Services often get delayed over 5 minutes easily.

Does anyone know when more resources will be made available?

Ormskirk should never have gone hourly until they had enough units for a sensible service.

I understand that some more units have been sent south by Scotrail recently....

Iv'e recently heard 'that some of the units are going to replace the Cumbrian coast loco hauled turns by the end of the year.....

If its true about the Cumbrian Coast going Dmu in January wouldn't northern be better trying to sort out the mess like the Colne, Ormskirk & Blackpool South services instead of taking away resources that could wait until they've got more units or some new trains into traffic in the spring

Sc 43090

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2018

323235 said:
The Colne , Ormskirk , Blackpool South circuit is rediculous at the moment - the timetabled layovers are between 3-5 minutes with 5 units on rotation.

Services often get delayed over 5 minutes easily.

Does anyone know when more resources will be made available?

Ormskirk should never have gone hourly until they had enough units for a sensible service.

It won’t change - the whole point was to give Ormskirk an hourly service without adding a unit.

Lampshade · 23 Dec 2018

Ken H said:
i have never been on that line. do many get off the electrics and get on the DMU to preston?

I’d say slightly more than 1 in 10, it’s also quite well used on Liverpool match days with people heading to Kirkdale/Sandhills.

CheshireCrusty · 23 Dec 2018

Ken H said:
They got bounced into the DOO dispute by the DfT as a franchise commitment. And the failure of Network Rail to deliver electrification on time, and NR's failure to have a timetable for May 2018 at T-12 cause a lot of resource problems for Northern, problems they had to try and sort in 2 weeks.

Why Northern didnt do due diligence on the DOO issue before agreeing it is beyond me. Now they cant deliver DOO, and their costs are higher than forecast, so they probably will not get enough subsidy.

I read on another thread that the Northern Franchise agreement provided for compensation for Northern if the DOO issue led to industrial action. If true, then it does appear that Northern did do due diligence on the DOO issue and sought and obtained a contract variation.

To me that it does appear likely that the DfT are determined to have DOO on all non long distance franchises so that they do not have to deal with the issue if/when those franchises return to government control. Local strikes can be blamed on the TOCs whereas a strike on a nationalised service would be politically much more difficult to deal with.

Kite159 · 23 Dec 2018

SC43090 said:
Read into this as you like.... But over the last few Saturdays there as been 2 round trips between Sheffield -- Cleethorpes -- Sheffield ECS services operated by Northern via Brigg..... I assume it must be to do with keeping up driver knowledge on the route....

SC 43090

Those have been running for a while, although only in recent weeks have the ECS moves gone all the way to Cleethorpes, previously they turned round at Barnetby. But like you said it is to with driver knowledge as otherwise no Northern services use that line (unlike the Denton line where it still have ECS moves)

Back to Ormskirk, says something about the passenger demand on the old timetable when it used to be a 153 running the service...

kieron · 24 Dec 2018

adrock1976 said:
Since when has Preston been a city?

During geography lessons in my primary school days (1981 - 1989) the North West cities were Liverpool, Salford, Manchester, Lancaster, and Carlisle.

I'm pretty sure Chester was also a city in 1981.

BBC reporting on Northern Rail's Preston to Ormskirk line

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