I don't think football fans don't cause any trouble on the railways. Some clearly do. It's just that I see far more trouble caused by other groups of people on a regular basis where I live. The reason alcohol is banned on London North Western services out of Liverpool on Friday and Saturday night isn't football.
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Virgin trains to have special carriages for football fans
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
Balderdash. Utter balderdash. However becuase it is about football fans it is allowed here.
Your views are incorrect. I travel all the time by train and have never seen such behaviour. I am on the train now with Middlesbrough Leeds and Sunderland fabs all mixed in. No trouble. A few people have taken drink but nothing bad. I have had a pint ( hope you don't mind). No one has tried to destroy the train yet.
Ps I was in Glasgow this morning before the old firm. Loads of fans of.both Celtic and rangers. The train was perfectly fine. Did I miss something?
Using your knowledge and experience of such issues is there a signal I should look out for? Wouldn't want to start wrecking things early!
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I agree. You should see some of the "folk" that stumble off the Newbury race shuttles at Reading station on event days!
Not sure where to start with the entire post but this bit is just ridiculous.
I think the main observation here is that there is drunken behaviour to be seen in all groups whether they be football fans, race goers, stag parties or just groups of people returning home after getting "tanked". Proper security patrols of trains particularly on Friday and Saturday nights and after events is what is required. The Zurich S-Bahn have such patrols and having seen them in action, you would not want to argue with them!
diffident
Member
DRS have twenty passenger mark 2s, fourteen of which become available at the end of the Northern contract. No idea where you get the idea that they could form "8 - 10 8 car rakes" from, I'd be surprised if there are sufficient mainline registered mark 2s in total to field that many rakes of that length.
Anyway, we're not talking about the mass re-introduction of Foot-exs here, we're talking about booking out a carriage on a Pendo for select games.
There's no evidence yet to support my theory, but I suspect that coach U on an 11-car Pendo would be a good shout. No need for anyone to walk through.
You've clearly not encountered the reputation that Port Vale supporters have then!
I actually think there is a strong business case for TOC's to organise regular Footex's in co-operation with clubs. There is an opportunity to take coaches of the roads for long-distance away support for example.
I remember a few years ago, travelling to Wembley twice in the space of a few weeks from Birmingham Moor Street. On both occasions the trains were rammed to the rafters with football fans (me included) heading to Wembley stadium (and back again). I can quite understand how being on a packed out train full of football-shirted and scarfed fans who are all laughing, joking with each other can be intimidating for ordinary passengers who were not expecting it. Had a specific Footex been laid on for those two matches, where the capacity was available, that slight issue would have been resolved easily, and the train could have run Moor Street to Wembley direct.
I don't see how this can be anything more than a token gesture; the idea that most football fans can be conveyed in specific coaches is fundamentally flawed.
) on a Saturday night regardless of sporting activity. It's just you get more of them if an event has been on. The problem isn't the sport, it's a cultural issue.
Exactly; the problem isn't football as such, it's the fact that some people like to get drunk, be rowdy and behave badly. They often look for an 'excuse' to behave this way; it may be horse racing but football is the most popular sport and the most attractive to many people.
This is inaccurate. Having been to big and small games, there are bad eggs everywhere, the difference is that once you reach a sufficiently large group of rowdy people then you really notice them and peer pressure kicks in. So you notice it more with bigger events and bigger teams. It is not true to suggest that the behaviour of the average fan of a smaller club is going to be much better than those supporting larger clubs.
Very true, but then those who want a quiet journey would get one. The bigger issue would be getting all the rowdy people in one coach. I suspect that may not be achievable, and even if it was achievable, you wouldn't be wanting to mix the teams up. I was with a group of forum members when an incident occurred on an XC journey from Birmingham only a few months ago, but I doubt any proposals here would prevent such an incident occurring, based on the nature of it.
True, horse racing supporters can be bad too.
I am not sure what you are saying here. If the suggestion is that anyone who is a football fan is likely to cause trouble, that clearly isn't true. However it is true that there are people who cause trouble on the railway who look for an excuse to travel, and one weekend that may be a horse race and another weekend that may be a football game. It's not your average football fan causing these problems, and football is such a popular sport, the football is really used as an 'excuse'.
You will actually find that a significant proportion of those attending matches will be doing as you describe. But you don't notice them and may not even realise they are going to a football game. I'd say a higher proportion of horse racing fans are badly behaved than the proportion of football fans who are badly behaved. But you will see badly behaved people board at York on trains going to certain destinations (which I won't name
) on a Saturday night regardless of sporting activity. It's just you get more of them if an event has been on. The problem isn't the sport, it's a cultural issue.Yes this does happen, but these people end up so drunk when they get into the ground that they cannot possibly appreciate the actual match. These people are a minority of fans. If you go into a stadium you won't see most people staggering around totally drunk. It's a significant minority. But the football is just an excuse and they'd still do this if football didn't exist
But most do this!
This is the only part of your post that is proportionate. I agree!
The problem is caused by people who want to behave like louts, those people look for an excuse and football has the misfortune of being an excuse used by a significant number of them but that does not mean football is the catalyst.
I usually attend the Grand National meet (not for the horses incidentally) and although the homegoing crowds are extremely loud (think 900 people on a 508 singing ABBA's greatest hits) I've never seen anything nasty. The last nasty incident I've come across was after a Chester race meeting with a brawl on a 158.
Football fans can be loud, uncouth and intimidating. But so can stag parties, hen parties and suchlike. They can also be delightful.
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And Millwall haven't even had a mention yet, the anti-football fan brigade are slipping!
I've travelled with football fans hundreds of times as a fan myself or just happened to be on the same train. Rowdy at times? Yes. Wrecking the train? No. Once I had what some would see as the misfortune of travelling with Millwall fans from Kings Cross to Middlesbrough on Grand Central and then Northern, not a peep out of them other than some great discussions about players that had moved to/from Millwall and my dislike of Dennis Wise.
Are you sure these aren't racegoers? Give me a choice between travelling with racegoers or football fans, the latter wins every time.
I've travelled with football fans hundreds of times as a fan myself or just happened to be on the same train. Rowdy at times? Yes. Wrecking the train? No. Once I had what some would see as the misfortune of travelling with Millwall fans from Kings Cross to Middlesbrough on Grand Central and then Northern, not a peep out of them other than some great discussions about players that had moved to/from Millwall and my dislike of Dennis Wise.
Are you sure these aren't racegoers? Give me a choice between travelling with racegoers or football fans, the latter wins every time.
I think this hits the nail on the head. The fans who prebook a "package" are unlikely to be the problem.
I personally think the horse racing crowd are far worse when it is a big event. Fortunately they are few and far between compared to football. They get absolutely steamed from early in the morning and I would say there is a not insignificant problem with people getting beaked up for the special occasion. Combine that with the sense of entitlement some people seem to get when they put a suit on and you have a real powder keg. Many (Not all) football fans are well aware of how the police will handle them if they put one foot out of line. The same doesn't seem to hold true for the races or a stag or hen do. One thing that makes the footy crowd a bit calmer is that you get mum's and dad's taking their kids to the game, you don't get that as much with the races or stag do's.
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The meet just gone some clown on the train heard me talking to a mate and decided to tell me he hated Liverpool and Scousers and he wouldn't be coming back. I said good and he threw a punch at me. I won't go near the pubs near Moorfields during Aintree as it is carnage as they all pile off the train. We normally evacuate further and further away as they disperse. I am surprised but glad you have seen no trouble.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
For what it’s worth this is very generalistic.
I’m a football guy and go to most Spurs home games, yet never have I been rowdy or drunk and disorderly. Sure man people are gonna be in cheery spirits after a win, but if you’re not in the quiet zone it’s not a problem.
In fact, it’s trainspotters that are worse in my opinion. Many times I’ve tried to have a relaxing journey but all I can hear is the loud chants of “actually Simon old chap I feel that we should divert via Staines today because it would he awfully spiffing to get bash some top hole Junipers, and I shall score some jolly smashing 455s for my book of mileage old chum, I say, it’s a frightful dash these first rate whizzbangers are being replaced!” at maximum volume. And that coming from people around my age too half the time, unbelievably!
Like can anyone else relate?
I’m a football guy and go to most Spurs home games, yet never have I been rowdy or drunk and disorderly. Sure man people are gonna be in cheery spirits after a win, but if you’re not in the quiet zone it’s not a problem.
In fact, it’s trainspotters that are worse in my opinion. Many times I’ve tried to have a relaxing journey but all I can hear is the loud chants of “actually Simon old chap I feel that we should divert via Staines today because it would he awfully spiffing to get bash some top hole Junipers, and I shall score some jolly smashing 455s for my book of mileage old chum, I say, it’s a frightful dash these first rate whizzbangers are being replaced!” at maximum volume. And that coming from people around my age too half the time, unbelievably!
Like can anyone else relate?
Fearless
Member
Feeling your pain there, my friend! But I'd nominate race goers (as mentioned more than once in this thread) as the worst I've encountered. Two examples: at York, totally tanked bloke urinating openly in the middle of the pavement outside the station, not even attempting to get up close to a wall; and a chap on the train from Cheltenham to Bristol, when pulling into Parkway station, asking how long it was to Temple Meads, because he really needed to be sick. Puh-lease!
Back in the 1970s I used to go to Elland Road (yeah, I know, but Leeds were the top team back in those days) and would be on a train back to Edinburgh that had started at Lime Street. So it had fans from Liverpool, Everton, Leeds, Sunderland and Newcastle, possibly also the two Manchesters. The worst trouble I saw was the toilet-roll streamers out the windows. Maybe I was lucky.
adrock1976
Established Member
In the Football thread in the General Discussion section, did you not mention the upcoming cup match between Darlington 1883 and Hartlepool can have a hooligan element to it or something similar?
Some things relating to football hooliganism that has happened previously:
1980 Scottish Cup Final - the finalists were Glasgow Rangers (1872-2012) and the Parkhead mob. There was trouble after the final whistle due to the amounts of alcohol consumed. This was what led to the ban of consuming alcohol in stadiums and on coach services soon after.
1985 FA Cup (unsure which round) - Luton Town v Millwall. After Millwall were defeated, the casuals literally smashed up the town centre of Luton.
1985 European Cup Final, Heysel, Belgium - A group of hooligans who charged across the stadium at rival fans caused a wall to collapse. This led to English clubs having a 5 year ban from participating in European club tournaments.
1996 European Championship Semi Final, England v Germany - After England bowed out on the dreaded penalty shootout, various hooligans smashed windows of some Aldi stores.
2018 - A banana skin make its way pitchside towards a black Arsenal player a few weeks ago. This used to happen a lot during the 1980s combined with monkey noises.
There are several others I could go into, but this would end up being a very lengthy post. As things presently stand, although progress has been made with initiatives such as "Stand Up to Racism" there is still a lot of work to do to get rid of the unsavoury aspects that have arisen in football.
My son is an avid Man City fan and I was very thankful he never went to away games, partly because there is a chance - much less than the stereotypes from thirty years ago, though - of being assaulted by the home fans, but a much higher chance of being mishandled by the police. Another Man City fan I know was constantly having trouble from the police in various towns merely because he is a big man and therefore to these prejudiced thugs in uniform, he must be out for trouble. Actually he is a male nurse and a very gentle man, but put a scarf around his neck and he inevitably must be a thug himself. Possibly the most egregious abuse of police power he experienced was being corralled with other away fans and tried to be forced on to a train by the police when he had actually come by car and didn't of course have a ticket, but the attitude was simply to clear their town of rival fans by any and all means.
BluePenguin
On Moderation
I HATE LOUD FOOTBALL FANS! They cause me and everyone else a lot of stress and need to be kept well away.
The quiet and considerable ones are more than welcome to sit near us.
I doubt there would be any booking taking place. When you arrive at the station, if you look like you're going to make a lot of noise I'm sure you'll be instructed to get into the relevant carrige by the crowd control staff.
You do understand that in the premiership theres nearly 300000 PER WEEK who go to the games so times that by 10 and you have 3 million fans going to football.
there were, by your own quote 330 incidents.
You do the maths. Then try again with your complaining
bramling
Veteran Member
But presumably in most cases trainspotters won’t be taking over the whole train, so there would most possibly be the option to find somewhere else to sit. Try doing that on some crush-loaded train full of football fans, no doubt also having the nerve to moan about how busy the train is and failing to make the connection as to why that might be...
kevconnor
Member
This has nearly happened to myself. I am a Manchester United fan, so much so that I moved away from Manchester. I went to game at Newcastle about 10 years ago and wasn't going back to Manchester, instead was heading north to Edinburgh. I headed back to the station with some friends to get the train north and ended being penned in by the police towards the Manchester train. But for the fact I don't have a Manchester accent and wasn't wearing anything red I was able to stay in platform and convince them I was waiting for another service.
That's quite some statement, how do you know someone is 'going to make a lot of noise'? Does that include children and families? What about larger groups of friends?
randyrippley
Established Member
- Joined
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We've got this far and no-one's suggested Pacers?
Perhaps they could use them from York after the races have been on too
I suggested redundant Pacers for this kind of service twelve months ago! I should have copyrighted the idea
People getting misty eyed about a 455 ? Not something I've ever encountered I'm afraid
On a serious note, the point about being coralled onto the wrong train is quite worrying. I'm reminded of the thread a while back which mentioned a Crystal Palace fan being sent to Croydon after a Brighton game, even though he lived in Brighton !
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ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Much like good old BR used to have "spare" sets of MK1 coaches for use on Footex services , as they were sort of expendable.
Though to be fair , full rakes of air con stock was used , when the clubs got their act together and provided stewards etc , - on one occasion - pre 1975 , otherwise spare "Blue Pullman" sets were used for Footex charters.
In my experience of being "person in charge" , and happy to go on the platfroms in a gold braid cap , fans were generally boisterous but good hearted and a quite good atmosphere. Talking about Wembley and Watford., with the odd run out to Highbury and Camden. Never had any concern for myself or the staff.
Yes you can select certain issues which never will place football fans in a good light but given teh hundereds of games that go on up and down the country week in week out they are a minority of people causing such issues.
Now given the amount of lineside issues that happen round trains i dont remember seeing you condemning them so harshly? In fact going through your posts i can certainly see its something you dont even bother with
https://www.railforums.co.uk/search/9205472/
It doesnt strike me as odd because why would you ? Why would you even bother to discuss the blatant disregard for human life including those who will have to clean up after a death on a railway bother you so much when its far easier for you to attack football fans or anyone else who isnt railway related? It does, however speak volumes of yourself and others when they/you fail to address these issues.
I think boisterous and generally good hearted is actually a good way of describing it. I had 6 Everton fans once pitch a bloke off my train who was trying to break down my cab door following a few too many hits of something illegal.
It doesn't of course make it any less intimidating for someone of a nervous disposition who might expect a different travelling environment.
It doesn't of course make it any less intimidating for someone of a nervous disposition who might expect a different travelling environment.
HaggisBotherer
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Precisely what does that have to do with the subject at hand, that of demonising every football fan for their apparently drunken, loud and violent behaviour every time they travel by train?
I am against any kind of 'ism', be it racism, ageism, sexism etc etc. But your post sounds like one of the many others who seem to be desperately trying to convince yourselves of your justification in jumping on the 'every football supporter is a thug' bandwagon.
Personally I have found the vast majority of football fans to be far better behaved than many children on trains, as their parents stuff their faces in their phones/tablets and ignore little Harry/Chelsea 'expressing themselves'.
'Peak Army' anyone? But of course they were railway 'enthusiasts' (sic), so smashing up Mk1s was OK, wasn't it?
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BluePenguin
On Moderation
Oh you can tell I can assure you. Potentially loud passengers are very easy to spot. They do not quietly enter the station and wait for their train. They make lots noise and typically are singing out of tune songs.
Children, families and large groups do make noise. However it is easy to walk down the carriage and sit somewhere else. This is not possible when the train is full of footbal fans.
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BluePenguin
On Moderation
It is the red alarm that makes people see red. Anyway back onto the topic at hand, separating two very different categories of passenger is in everyone's interest and it is good to see that work is being done to put this into practise.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
I think you have to have a bit of banter ready , or repartee - both with the fans and with the BTP or local coppers. Funnily enough some of the well refreshed members were quite good at promising to look after their mates as they were not going to be allowed onto a train unless someone vouched for keeping an eye on him and seeing him safe. We had an external stone thrower on a 310 one game - which put out a window we kept the train in service (reduced speed to Northampton) so we knocked out the glass - and locked out that carriage. Whilst this was being done at a station north of Euston , we had a few volunteers from the on board fans for finding the miscreant. No one hurt and the train on the move after no more than about 8 mins delay. Helps when you have local fans and local train crew.....
Polarbear
Established Member
Personally, I find that football fans, whilst often boisterous, are rarely offensive to other passengers. I’ve traveled on the UK rail network for over 40 years & can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I’ve encountered trouble with football fans.
Race-goers are the worst menace, on the railways or in & around town. I’ve also had abuse hurled at me from some Rugby “fans” in the past, which I understand to be unusual.
As for how VT are realistically going to manage to keep football fans segregated, I have no idea!
Race-goers are the worst menace, on the railways or in & around town. I’ve also had abuse hurled at me from some Rugby “fans” in the past, which I understand to be unusual.
As for how VT are realistically going to manage to keep football fans segregated, I have no idea!
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